25.000000 I had a choice: prison at home or exile. — You escaped through woodland? — Swampland. They’re all sellouts. I saw it. — Couldn’t you keep quiet? — Borders. No repression. — I went all-in westward. — I cry regularly. — You lost your homeland. — They kicked us out, but we kept going.

— Alternative country. — In essence, yes. Could the situation in Belarus repeat in Russia? In early 2022, our recent guest Slava Komissarenko announced that he was leaving Russia. According to his sources, a group of KGB agents was on its way to Moscow to take him to Minsk by force.

Because this had previously happened to Belarusians hiding in Russia,

[Russia extradites MMA fighter Aleksey Kudin] [despite ECHR forbidding it] – [KP’s Editor-in-Chief: journalist Mozheyko] [taken from Moscow to Minsk] – [A Belarusian oppositionist was captured in Moscow] [and transported to Minsk in secret yesterday.] [This is the second incident in recent days] – Because this had previously happened to Belarusians hiding in Russia,

Komissarenko left. 2021 became the year of revenge in Belarus. In 2021, they grounded a plane, gave Lukashenko’s election opponents insane prison sentences,

[Viktor Babariko — 14 years in prison] [Sergey Tihanovskiy — 18 years in prison] [Mariya Kolesnikova — 11 years in prison] – In 2021, they grounded a plane, gave Lukashenko’s election opponents insane prison sentences,

[Viktor Babariko — 14 years in prison] [Sergey Tihanovskiy — 18 years in prison] [Mariya Kolesnikova — 11 years in prison] – put people in jail for comments on the Internet, 1put people in jail for comments on the Internet, and introduced the practice of coerced public apologies.

As a result, a ton of people left Belarus. Exact numbers don’t exist. Estimates range from 100,000 to 150,000, and 200,000, and even more. To put it into context, 200,000 people is like 3,000,000 people leaving Russia. In our travels, we regularly meet Belarusians whose homeland was stolen from them.

Their history shakes you to the core. And they’re not just creative young adults, who are considered the backbone of the protest. They’re also ex-military, construction workers, engineers, hospital workers and pensioners. You can easily find the documentary Country in Exile on YouTube. It was made by Rain TV’s journalist Masha Borzunova.

It’s a fantastic documentary and a highly recommended watch. It shows how Belarus spent the year following the election. The purpose of this episode is to show how Belarusian expats settle down abroad. We talked to people with different professions, ages and incomes in pursuit of two goals.

Number one: to explore what it’s like to be forced to leave behind a home you truly love. Particularly, to leave it behind for a while, or potentially, forever. Number two: try to figure out if repression in Russia could reach the level of modern-day Belarus. (exhales sharply) Let’s go. Biggest interviewer in Belarus forced to leave Belarus. Easy. [Nikita Melkozerov] [Journalist] [Nikita Melkozerov] [YouTube: The Good Life (lit. “Life like Raspberry”)] [Journalist] [Nikita Melkozerov] [From: Minsk] [YouTube: The Good Life (lit. “Life like Raspberry”)] [Journalist] [Nikita Melkozerov] [Currently: Warsaw] [From: Minsk] [YouTube: The Good Life (lit. “Life like Raspberry”)] [Journalist] [Nikita Melkozerov]

Why did it happen? Because June 3 happened [June 3, 2021] – when they arrested my friend Sasha Ivulin, when they arrested my friend Sasha Ivulin, who at the time was 100% about sports, having launched a show about football.

[*Yevgeniy Savin, retired football player, turned football] [journalist and club owner (named Krasava after his football] [blog on YouTube). “Krasava” is an exclamation that literally] [means “beaut” and is used to cheer someone’s success.] [In football context, it’s used after particularly good shots.] – — Belarus’ own Krasava*. — Precisely.

— Or Belarus’ own Dima Porovozniuk. — Yeah. [Dmitriy (Dmitry) Porovozniuk, Ukrainian blogger,] [runs the YouTube channel “Trendets”] [(euphemistic “Shoot!”)] – I was certain that our secret police had these kill lists of activists. I was certain that our secret police had these kill lists of activists.

I realized I wasn’t at the top of those lists. But I also realized that before June 3, Sasha Ivulin had been far below me. Then his ranking suddenly went up. So the situation was completely random. It immediately became clear to me that I had to make a break for it.

Keep in mind that the nation lived in a state of permanent anxiety. So I got questions like “Why aren’t you behind bars yet?” about every fourth day. What estimate of expat numbers do you find most believable? I find the range between 200,000 and 250,000 people most probable.

[Pavel Liber] [Software engineer] – I find the range between 200,000 and 250,000 people most probable. I think it’s closest to reality. Does that only include those who left or also those who returned?

[According to Poland’s Foreign Ministry, between June 2020] [and July 2021, Poland issued over 178,000 visas to] [Belarusians, of which 12,000 were humanitarian.] [For comparison, throughout 2019, Poland only issued] [seven (7) humanitarian visas to Belarusians] – Does that only include those who left or also those who returned?

[According to Poland’s Foreign Ministry, between June 2020] [and July 2021, Poland issued over 178,000 visas to] [Belarusians, of which 12,000 were humanitarian.] [For comparison, throughout 2019, Poland only issued] [seven (7) humanitarian visas to Belarusians] – It’s people who left and haven’t returned to Belarus yet.

[According to Poland’s Foreign Ministry, between June 2020] [and July 2021, Poland issued over 178,000 visas to] [Belarusians, of which 12,000 were humanitarian.] [For comparison, throughout 2019, Poland only issued] [seven (7) humanitarian visas to Belarusians] – — 200 to 250 thousand people left the country? — Yes. Yes.

— 200 to 250 thousand people left the country? — Yes. Yes. [Moscow → Warsaw] [2 hours (by plane)] [WARSAW, POLAND] A Belarusian official’s biggest boon is complete loyalty. Today, people who oppose Lukashenko in any way at all, like they wear different suits, they’re enemies, and that’s it. Our guests talked about it quite boldly. Compromising your conscience is much worse than knowing the reality and staying silent.

[Aleksandra Gerasimenia, Olympic swimming medalist;] [formerly, one of Lukashenko’s favorite athletes] – Catching reproachful looks is much worse than doing time. For me and for a lot of people in our country, I think. The summer of 2020 was the best summer in my and many other Belarusians’ lives,

Because we suddenly felt a real connection to our country and its current affairs. Without all those notions like “Forget about politics, stay out of it.” You suddenly made the word “citizen” mean something. You were like: “I’ll walk with my feet to this school, put my vote down and fold the ballot.”

“And I’ll actually bring change to my country.” But the belief in Belarus is, there’s only one man who can bring change. And they don’t want it. When we were in Georgia, local Georgian guys who help Belarusians assimilate, told us something that got me right in the feels.

When one of the Georgians was flying home with a transfer in Minsk, with time to go out to the city, somebody asked him: “Can you take a picture or a short video of my old building?” “I really wanna see it.” Was it a unique, one-time case? Or does this happen often?

I haven’t heard stories like that. But sometimes, when I get particularly sad, and with the weather in Warsaw, you get sad a lot, and it gets dark at 3 PM here,

[*Large urban forest park in Minsk.] – I do think I would kill for a chance to have a cup of coffee somewhere near Chelyuskinites Park* or a chance to go to Grodno for the weekend. It chokes you up, for real. Grodno is the prettiest city in Belarus, isn’t it?

I believe so, but here’s the most important mnemonic about the cities of Belarus: “Brest is the best.” But yeah, my top 3 are Grodno, Braslav and Brest. [Warsaw → Białystok] [2 hours (by car)] [Białystok, Poland] [Białystok, Poland] – One of the Belarusians lost a dog yesterday. I’m looking to see if it’s theirs. One of the Belarusians lost a dog yesterday. I’m looking to see if it’s theirs. Probably not. — Local Belarusian chat? — Yeah, yeah, yeah. — Correct me when I’m wrong. — Okay.

You live in Białystok. Białystok is the city closest to Belarus. 75 kilometers from Grodno and 50, from the Belarusian border. — It’s very close. — Yes. [Ruslan Kulevich] [Journalist, local historian] [Ruslan Kulevich] [YouTube channel: We’ll Return] [Journalist, local historian] [Ruslan Kulevich] [From: Grodno] [YouTube channel: We’ll Return] [Journalist, local historian] [Ruslan Kulevich]

[Currently: Białystok] [From: Grodno] [YouTube channel: We’ll Return] [Journalist, local historian] [Ruslan Kulevich] You were a journalist in Grodno. But my colleagues tell me you’re not just a journalist, you’re also a… — Local historian. — Local historian, yeah. — The minstrel and ambassador of Grodno, as they called you. — That’s nice.

They also said, whenever they discovered an old basement in Grodno, in 20 minutes, Ruslan was there, looking for artifacts. Whenever they demolished buildings too. Construction workers would call me and go: “You have 10 minutes to explore this building.”

I would climb to the attic, find an old album with pictures, and notes, and whatnot. Your channel is called We’ll Return. I understand one of the missions of your channel is to show that it wasn’t just the hip Minsk co-working space crowd that wanted change in Belarus, but all kinds of people.

My goal is to show that the revolution wasn’t isolated in the capital, Minsk. I’m sure everyone in Russia too was like, “Look at how many people rallied in Minsk!” My goal is to show the rest of the country.

First stage of my program I shot in the west, in cities like Brest, Grodno and others. Now I’ve switched to the east, and I’m curious myself: what was it like there? [*Political slur for a patriotic/pro-government Russian.] – Because our westerners say that the east is full of vatniks*.

— I don’t mean to offend anyone. — What a terrible word. It’s what they say. I don’t think they’re like that. But it’s what they say. Lots of people there are pro-merging with Russia. But as recent interviews have shown, there were big rallies there too, up to 15,000 people.

The revolution wasn’t exclusive to Minsk. I have two of these bracelets. One is… Garodnia. — What is that? — It’s Grodno. — Oh, in Belarusian? — Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. That’s one. — This is the article of the criminal code you were prosecuted by? — Yes. What’s the article?

[*Can be interpreted as 11:34 PM.] – 23.34. I even celebrated the New Year this year at this time.

[Article 23.34 of the Belarusian Administrative] [Offense Code: Violation of proper procedure] [of organization or conduct of public events] – [*Can be interpreted as 11:34 PM.] – 23.34. I even celebrated the New Year this year at this time. They say, “You’re not a Belarusian, if you haven’t done time.” I’m proud of it! Aleksandra Hanevich. Who is she? She’s a pensioner and ex-chair of a veterans’ organization of one the companies in her city. She used to collect votes for Lukashenko. Then they arrested her… I mean she saw Tihanovskiy’s arrest in Grodno and lost it. She said, “No,” and started going to rallies and stuff.

She’s a real fighter. I had a choice: prison at home or exile. [Aleksandra Hanevich] [Pensioner] [Aleksandra Hanevich] [From: Grodno] [Pensioner] [Aleksandra Hanevich] [Currently: Białystok] [From: Grodno] [Pensioner] [Aleksandra Hanevich] I made my choice. — In 2020, you collected votes for Lukashenko in your veterans’ organization. — Yes. What was this organization?

[*Chemfiber.] – — There’s this plant, Himvolkno*. — Mm-hmm. I worked there for 31 years. After that, I was deputy chair of the organization. And then for two years, chairwoman. — Your turning point was Tihanovskiy’s arrest? — Yes! Before that, I watched his streams and stuff where he went to all those villages.

I liked him for his honesty, his… Though I probably wouldn’t have voted for him. I preferred Babariko. — He’s a little too fei… for my taste. — Too aggressive? You know? Too straightforward. But then I saw his arrest.

[Sergey Tihanovskiy was arrested on 29 May 2020] [while collecting signatures to run for President] [of Belarus. On 14 December 2021, Tihanovskiy] [was sentenced to 18 years in prison] – I kept rewatching the video the whole night.

[Sergey Tihanovskiy was arrested on 29 May 2020] [while collecting signatures to run for President] [of Belarus. On 14 December 2021, Tihanovskiy] [was sentenced to 18 years in prison] – It was all a set-up. There were police vans from Minsk. There were comments like…

— The arrest was a set-up? — Yes, the arrest was a set-up. This woman from Minsk kept provoking him. He didn’t lay a finger on that police officer. The secret police and 1937 suddenly returned to Belarus in 2020 and 2021. I used to live above a loading bay of a store.

In summertime, with open windows, I heard every car outside. Unfortunately, there were lots. And about every ten minutes I’d run up to the window to look who’s driven up. If it’s coppers or not. This happened non-stop. You live under constant stress, not knowing what’s next. People obviously stopped answering unfamiliar calls.

This system of constant suspicion was also there. You were scared of your own doorbell. It wasn’t rung very often, but when it was, it was a huge stress. Yeah, I’ve published two books, in 2019 and 2020. Currently working on a third one.

Two years ago, I went to Poland in search of Grodno expats. I tracked people down and asked them, “Why did you leave Grodno?” They’d say: “We ran from the communists.” “They said our choices were Poland or Siberia.” So they chose to move to Poland. They tell me, “Note, Ruslan, how…”

I call them up. They’re 90 or 95. And they say: “Note, Ruslan, how we fled in 1946 when they let us. And we thought we’d come back.” “You’re fleeing today, from the same communists.” The government didn’t change in these 80 years. It’s the same people. [The paid ad is also about books]

We’re in Frankfurt am Main. And this is the fourth episode of our Storytel series on the biggest dystopian works in world literature. We’ve already covered Orwell, Sorokin, Zamiatin. This time, we’re on Andrey Platonov’s philosophical parable, The Foundation Pit. Platonov’s relationship with the Soviet government was complicated.

If you read his biography, it’s filled with brutal twists of fate, like the arrest of his son who was only 15 at the time. Nevertheless, Platonov spent his entire life in our country. But The Foundation Pit, which he wrote in 1930, was first published only 18 years after its author’s death, in 1969.

They didn’t publish it in the Soviet Union. They did it here, in Frankfurt am Main. In the book, a group of construction workers is tasked with building an all-proletarian house that’s supposed to become the centerpiece of a new Utopian city of the future. But the construction never moves beyond the foundation pit.

It all feels like a scathing satire of the Soviet Union’s first 5-year plan. In this novel, Platonov essentially predicts that the plan to create universal communism would fail. (narrator) “I don’t exist here,” said Voshiov (Voschev), embarrassed that many people felt him alone. “I only think here.”

“For what purpose do you think? To torture yourself?” “Without truth, my body becomes weak.” “Labor can’t sate me.” “I used to think at work, and they fired me.” You started to wonder and got in trouble? Sounds like an evergreen problem. Storytel offers several narrations of The Foundation Pit.

I listened to the one recorded by actor Maksim Suhanov. Storytel regularly hires big actors to narrate books. One of the recent additions, The Adventure of the Seven Christmas Cards, read by Sergey Burunov. They also have books that have been adapted into popular shows, like Anxious People or Reflections of Eterna.

As of today, Storytel’s library includes over 170,000 books in Russian and English, for grown-ups and for kids. You can share your subscription with your child using a special mode, which only gives access to content for kids. To help you navigate this abundance, they have a smart recommendation system in place.

There’s always something to listen to next. Unlimited access to this trove of content will only cost you 18 rubles a day or 495 a month. With their monthly subscription, you can listen to as many books as you want. Download the Storytel app using the link in the description

And use a special bonus only for vDud viewers, 30-days free trial. Important note! That specific link and new users only. Try it out and decide for yourself. (claps hands) Let’s go! [Back to Poland] — You’re sisters? — Yes. — And instead of Grodno, you now live in Białystok. — Forced to… stay.

How come we’re meeting in Poland? Life made it so. Lukashenko wanted to remain in power so much that he sacrificed his people. Nadezhda and Zhanna had public jobs, but fled, at their age too. [← Zhanna Nadezhda→ ] – Nadezhda and Zhanna had public jobs, but fled, at their age too.

— One was an HR officer at a hospital. — Yes. — The other, engineer. — Yes, yes. They got suspended sentences, right? No, chemistry. [“Chemistry” is a form of restriction of freedom in Belarus.] [Has two types: with imprisonment and without it] – They got suspended sentences, right? No, chemistry.

[“Chemistry” is a form of restriction of freedom in Belarus.] [Has two types: with imprisonment and without it] – Yeah, they got chemistry and went for this step. We saw beatings of peaceful protesters on independent news sites. [Nadezhda Stepantseva Zhanna Zaharkevich] [Engineer HR worker] [Nadezhda Stepantseva Zhanna Zaharkevich]

[From: Grodno] [Engineer HR worker] [Nadezhda Stepantseva Zhanna Zaharkevich] [Currently: Białystok] [From: Grodno] [Engineer HR worker] [Nadezhda Stepantseva Zhanna Zaharkevich] That’s it. That’s what made me personally go out and rally. I couldn’t tolerate the violence

That the police was dishing out on Belarusian people, on young boys. Taraykovskiy’s death was a shock. They started shooting people to kill.

[Aleksandr Taraykovskiy, first casualty of the Belarusian] [protests. On August 10, 2020, he was shot dead while] [standing in front of the riot police with his hands raised.] [The Investigative Committee refused to open] [a criminal case] – Taraykovskiy’s death was a shock. They started shooting people to kill.

[Aleksandr Taraykovskiy, first casualty of the Belarusian] [protests. On August 10, 2020, he was shot dead while] [standing in front of the riot police with his hands raised.] [The Investigative Committee refused to open] [a criminal case] – What’s gonna happen next if we just sit around silently and do nothing?

What’s gonna happen next if we just sit around silently and do nothing? So we had to rally. We were obligated to. Not to mention, we knew he didn’t win the election. Lukashenko’s victory wasn’t even the surprising part. We saw it coming. To some degree.

Been winning for 26 years and will keep winning, as they say. So long as the nation says nothing. But tolerating the violence… It was brutal. They battered people right in front of you. People were hiding from the rain. And they beat them so bad that they needed an ambulance. And were prosecuted afterward.

How can anyone stay out of it? You’d lose your self-respect. — Did you discuss it with each other and your families before going to your first rally? — Of course! We never went without each other. Of course. We had the whole family council. (laughs) I mean we were crazy eager to go.

I went to my dacha on Saturday, but on Sunday, 2 PM, I was rallying. We were crazy eager. You’d come home from your dacha and clean up and pretty up before going out. (Zhanna) Every weekday we rallied at the city square too. At first, yeah. We went on weekdays.

You came home from work and went to these peaceful rallies. We thought it was gonna… it was gonna help. (laughs) — Seeing just how many people rallied inspired you to go too. — Yeah. You still hoped for change. The nation had woken up. [Warsaw → Vilnius] [50 minutes (by plane)]

[Vilnius → Kaunas] [1 hours (by car)] [Kaunas, Lithuania] [Kaunas, Lithuania] – Masha Borzunova made a documentary called Country in Exile about Belarusian expats. Masha Borzunova made a documentary called Country in Exile about Belarusian expats. Planning this episode, we didn’t wish to interview the same people. But one of them had an incredible story.

— You crossed the border on a paraglider. — Yes. [Andrey Susha] [Flaw detection specialist] [Andrey Susha] [From: Minsk] [Flaw detection specialist] [Andrey Susha] [Currently: Kaunas] [From: Minsk] [Flaw detection specialist] [Andrey Susha] It’s like a hobby? Well, I… I’ve done 1300 parachute jumps. I glide on this thing. Aviation. I like it.

But it’s a hobby, not like..? I was a paratrooper in the army, but I continued to do it afterward. Yeah, it’s a hobby. — Your profession is… — Flaw detection specialist. What industry? Well, you inspect all sorts of hazardous industrial equipment. Like pressurized containers, boilers, what have you.

— You design tests to assess their security after they’re manufactured. — Yes. Why did you go to the rallies? What made you interested in politics in 2020? Well, I was always interested in politics. I went to the 2010 post-election rally. I went to the square. I went to the 2018 Freedom Day rally.

[Freedom Day is an unofficial Independence Day] [celebrated on March 25] – I went to the 2018 Freedom Day rally. m Day is an unofficial Independence Day] [celebrated on March 25] – That was my first arrest. They brought us in, but… It was different then. They carefully put us in the detainee van.

Took us to the station. We stood around a bit. “Okay, you’re free to go.” And that was that, but 2020… These obvious lies were oozing from every hole. I mean back then, maybe some people did vote for him. It was debatable. It was a maybe.

The ballot stuffing, the rigging, it was there. But this time… I remember waiting to sign the candidacy nomination. — Where they collect signatures before the election. — For whom? I signed Babariko and Tihanovskaya. I think I waited for 90 minutes.

Or like an hour. And there was a line of people just to sign it. They stood and waited, you know? That’s gotta mean something. Similarly, on election day, I came to my local school and waited for 40 minutes to put my vote in. Tons of people. Coming to vote. Everyone wearing these bracelets.

We came that night to see the results. And this cop in the window was smirking at us. Eight o’clock. No results. Nine, ten, eleven. Then some cops arrived and escorted the election committee out, put them in their cop vans and took them away.

Then they put up the results sheet saying that Lukashenko won. That’s just… That’s a slap in the face. How do you do that? They pressed criminal charges. More than that. They charged, prosecuted and sentenced us. We appealed to a higher court. But they upheld the decision.

[← 3.5 years of restriction of freedom] [3 years of restriction of freedom →] – They gave me three years of restriction of freedom with detention at an open-type correctional facility. — It’s called “chemistry?” — (both) Chemistry, yes.

They take you God knows where. As we later learned, I was supposed to be detained in Vitebsk oblast.

[“Chemistry” convicts stay in dormitories or barracks] [and adhere to a set regiment. They’re given] [jobs depending on place of detention] – They take you God knows where. As we later learned, I was supposed to be detained in Vitebsk oblast.

[“Chemistry” convicts stay in dormitories or barracks] [and adhere to a set regiment. They’re given] [jobs depending on place of detention] – It’s across the country? It’s across the country. Nadezhda was to go to Mogiliov oblast.

As far away from our families as possible to keep them away from us and us, from each other. What did you do? Well, according to the prosecution, we assaulted eleven riot policemen. We and three men that were with us. Two brothers and another…

They’re two brothers. We, two sisters, the two brothers and another young man. He fled with us. He’s in Poland too. This was around 11:30. Sovetskaya street, downtown. Sovetskaya was blocked off. There was a chain of riot policemen. I came up to them to ask. “Go around.”

We went to go around, when I heard heavy footsteps behind us. I looked around — they’re dragging away this boy. He was so… I thought he was a child. He was… your height. Face to the ground. I didn’t skip a beat. I don’t know why I did it.

I leapt to this boy and tried to pull him away. But what could I do? They picked me up and carried me away with him. And that was that. Sasha wanted to… Sasha was there. We were together. [Sasha is Aleksandra’s son] – Sasha wanted to… Sasha was there. We were together.

I started shouting to him when I realized what was happening. I went, “Sasha, stay away!” But he didn’t get too far. They were grabbing everyone. He called me 10 minutes later. He was in another detainee van. — They held you for how long? — Fifteen hours. I didn’t realize at first. (chuckles)

I thought they could only detain you for three hours. When they were taking me to the interrogation room, it was nighttime. I went: “Where’s- Where’s my son?” “It’s 3AM. I’m scared to walk home alone.” “You’re not going.” “What do you mean? It’s been three hours.” “You’ll be tried.”

“What for? Did I beat someone up and forget all about it?” “Well… You’ll be tried.” They immediately fined me 20 base amounts. Though when I left the prison, I found out [20 base values = 580 Belarusian rubles = €200 ] – Though when I left the prison, I found out

[20 base values = 580 Belarusian rubles = €200 ] – that others were fined 10 to 15 max. [20 base values = 580 Belarusian rubles = €200 ] – Nobody said they got 20 like me. Nobody said they got 20 like me. I started to go to rallies.

We had a week of these great rallies. When you could still do it. They even said we didn’t need to pay the fines, because it was all unlawful. They even let my son go after just four days. Our company organized us to rally. Azot. We’re part of Azot.

[Grodno Azot produces chemicals.] [“Azot” is Russian for “nitrogen.”] – Azot. We’re part of Azot. [Grodno Azot produces chemicals.] [“Azot” is Russian for “nitrogen.”] – You should’ve seen this flag. We were so proud! — Factory staff? — Yes, yes. We rallied together. This lasted about a week. And that’s it. Then they banned it.

Did you interact with the riot police physically? (laughs) Well, you know… — Well, basically… — We didn’t strike them! — Yeah, we didn’t strike them. I pushed them away. I just… like this. I was rushing in. When a person is being attacked, how else do you react?

You push them away. You try to pull the person out. You see someone being choked… What else do you do? It must’ve gotten physical. There was probably pulling when we tried to save them. It probably got physical. We were stressed out. Even now, as we’re telling you all this, we’re shaking inside.

You think it’s easy? It ain’t easy. No, seriously, when you see something like that, your instant reaction is: “Must save!” It was a young guy! He went red. Then he went blue. He was suffocating! The riot policeman put his knee on his throat.

You tried to push him off? Or the crowd tried to. We, yeah, we rushed to… We wanted to save this guy. And maybe we did. Maybe he would’ve choked him to death. Maybe the fact that we pulled some of the officers away helped.

Maybe they dragged him off to a van and didn’t choke him anymore. — What date was it? — September 6, 2020. And they charged you right after this whole business? No, not right after. ‘Cause we continued to rally. We went every Sunday. We went on a detainee van ride on September 27.

The thing is, we were late to the rally, but they grabbed us anyway. We didn’t know exactly where the rally was happening. When we arrived, they’d scattered everyone already. We didn’t participate, but they stuck us in a detainee van anyway. We took this ride, but they were also…

They didn’t take us to the prison. They let us go. My blood pressure spiked, so I left in an ambulance. Nadezhda has a condition, so they let her go too. [*District Office of Internal Affairs.] – They started summoning us to our RUVD*. To the station.

We thought it was the administrative case, ’cause they opened a file. We weren’t even surprised to hear, “Please come in as witnesses…” We thought it was the administrative case. But when they pressed charges for September 6, we were shocked. We didn’t realize at first that it was gonna be something serious,

Like “chemistry” or prison. We thought: “It’s probably a money thing. They want a bigger fine, hence the criminal case.” Because our article had an administrative punishment section with 100 or so base values fine. We thought they were short on cash and wanted to shake us up.

We were more or less calm about it. But when they added another criminal article on top, that was a shocker. That’s when we thought, “We gotta do something about this.” We didn’t want to go to prison, no way. They arrested me. I spent three days at the Okrestina prison.

[Okrestina is a detention center in Minsk located] [in the eponymous alley. Became known for] [abuse and torture of arrested protesters] – They arrested me. I spent three days at the Okrestina prison.

[Okrestina is a detention center in Minsk located] [in the eponymous alley. Became known for] [abuse and torture of arrested protesters] – After three days, they let me go.

[Okrestina is a detention center in Minsk located] [in the eponymous alley. Became known for] [abuse and torture of arrested protesters] – They brought me in on Friday. The following Thursday, the Investigative Committee summoned me for “interrogation.” But my lawyer said, “You’re not coming out of there.”

He learned that they charged me with another article and said: “Do what you can, ’cause you’re… They’ll put you in jail.” The criminal case against you was for an offensive comment about… For offending and threatening violence against a police officer. That’s the other thing they charged me with.

We have a Telegram channel called Punishers of Belarus. They post information about Lukashenko’s scum. — And you left a comment there? — Yes. Under your name. I didn’t think about security much back then. These days, people are sneaky. But back then, I even had my phone number there.

You could say it was naive and stupid. When they arrested you, they got access to your phone. Yeah. They searched my home and took… I had several phones. They took my electronics, got access to my phone. That was like a cornucopia of new charges.

How did they get in? Where did they get the password? They made me tell it to them. We decided to run. Even before the court ruling. — You escaped through woodland? — Swampland. We weren’t escaping to Poland. Initially, we went to Lithuania. What was it like? After the regional court upheld the verdict…

We knew we weren’t going. That much was certain. No matter what, we weren’t going to those places. We got outside and were like: “So what do we do now? Flee.” We got a map and took a look… (laughs) where to go. We put down two points: point of departure and point of arrival.

— You mean Google Maps or a paper map? — No, a paper one! (both laugh) Oh, yeah! We also realized we needed a compass. We’d never used a compass before. (laughs) No, it was… It was really interesting and fun. It was funny at first. Until it wasn’t.

We realized we needed to take some food and water with us. So we packed a backpack. We ended up not needing… Well, water ran out because we got lost in the swamp. Well, we didn’t get lost. More like, something went wrong. Because we trekked through the swamp for 12 hours.

Were you wearing boots? Yeah, right! Sneakers! But the swamp kept swallowing them, so I took them off. — So twelve hours of swampland. — Yes. The map said that across this swamp was..? No, you couldn’t tell that there was a swamp. It didn’t show a swamp. We didn’t know.

You could tell it was wilderness, and that’s it. Lithuania was to the north. So we went north. We’d set a landmark. We read how to use a compass. We set a northward landmark, a tree, and looked at the tree. Then the trees started to blend so we double-checked each other.

I’m like, “Zhanna, what do you..?” She’s like: “North’s there. Let’s go.” I’m walking behind her with a compass, checking for myself: “Looks like it. North’s that way.” Best we could. When we arrived at the lake and saw this lake… By that point, we didn’t care which border patrol we’d encounter, ours or theirs.

It was all the same to us. — ‘Cause we were exhausted, and then we saw this lake… — We didn’t care anymore. I looked at my sister and went, “You wanna swim?” She was like: “Are you insane? The bog, and now the lake?” I can’t swim, by the way, is the thing. (laughs)

I’d sink like a stone. But she wanted to swim across. — That lake was huge. — I didn’t know it was that big! There was a Belarusian post on our side and a Lithuanian one across the lake. She figured, “We gotta swim.” (laughs) How did you walk around it?

— We just went along it. It was bound to end somewhere. — We went the wrong way at first. We went the wrong way. Then we noticed there weren’t any Lithuanian posts. We realized we were going the wrong way, so we turned around and headed back.

Later, walking through the forest, we were like: “I don’t care if…” We were on a trail at that point. “If the border patrol catches us, I don’t care.” We didn’t care because we could barely walk. But when the lake ended and we saw neutral land,

I went: “Zhanna, no one’s gonna hurt us here!” I decided to glide because I read an article about this guy who tried to cross the border through the woods and they caught him; he got “chemistry.” I thought: “You’re not catching me.” “Airborne, I dictate the rules.”

I got a lift to the border. Something like 20 km from the Belarusian border. I laid out my equipment. I took off and flew away. You called it the “Afghan variant,” where you stay as low as possible. Yeah. Staying low to use trees as cover and to reduce firing angles.

Just in case they opened fire. That’s why I didn’t fly that high. And I succeeded. The plan worked. You said you’d rather get shot down than go to Lukashenko’s prison. No, I’m not going to prison again. I’m… not going back. When you bought the compass, did nobody get suspicious?

— Like your families? — Nobody saw it. — Nobody knew. Delivery or the store? The store. We went to the store right after we left the courthouse. They weren’t even the kind of compasses that we used to… (through laughter) You should’ve seen our compasses! (through laughter) We got compasses that were like keychains.

It’s funny to think about now. But it was terrifying. I remember I put everything together the night before, so that I could get out of the car, put it on and take off, and not waste time assembling it, because the border area was nearby, and I didn’t want unnecessary attention.

So I assembled everything and double- and triple-checked that it was ready to go. I didn’t want to get to the spot only to find out that I forgot something and go back. How long were you airborne? Like, what distance did you cross? I did almost 60 kilometers. Sixty?!

So you flew almost 60 kilometers to the border? No, I crossed the border and then flew over Lithuania for a while. The wind was south-western that day, so I drifted north-east. I saw that I’d crossed the border, but just to be safe, I turned west, and went all-in westward.

I spent all the fuel I had just to make sure I landed in Lithuania. I didn’t want to drift. I wanted to stay in Lithuania. “All-in westward.” That was so full of symbolism. We didn’t know where we… We heard dogs barking and headed that way. And it was this little hamlet.

A man came out to us. We asked if he could give us some water and call the border patrol. And he called them. He said: “You’re not the first ones. You’re not the first Belarusians here.” They interrogated us at the office, and we got picked up.

The Belarusian diaspora in Lithuania picked us up and offered us help and a temporary place to stay. The Polish border patrol was very surprised when they saw my age and my visa type. A humanitarian visa clearly indicates that… — Political reasons. — Yes. I brought my detention records, and based on them…

— You needed proof of political persecution. — Yes. [*Polish for “lady.”] And this patrolman, the shift senior officer, was like, “How come pani* has this visa?” I went, “Well, I do.” I fled through Russia. When news of Sasha’s detention broke out,

[Sasha = Aleksandr Ivulin, the sports journalist] I immediately started calling up medical centers for a covid test. Only state-run organizations did tests for airlines. So I called a private clinic that did tests that let you cross the Russian border on a train. I got my PCR in two days;

I bought a ticket to Petersburg two hours before departure; and I went to experience White Nights and the UEFA Championship. You chose the train to avoid airport border security? Exactly. And also, it was affordable back then. Among Belarusian expats: the country’s biggest interviewer, sports bloggers, obviously, journalists that write about politics, IT specialists, and even political experts! I mean, it’s everybody who somehow either felt threatened physically or couldn’t continue to work. Forced to leave the country. Something’s gotta give. [Sergey Chaliy] [Economist] [Sergey Chaliy]

[YouTube channel Chaliy Live] [Economist] [Sergey Chaliy] [From: Minsk] [YouTube channel Chaliy Live] [Economist] [Sergey Chaliy] [Currently: Warsaw] [From: Minsk] [YouTube channel Chaliy Live] [Economist] [Sergey Chaliy] You and I tried to talk about celebrities. In our country, in her present state, the real celebrities are political and economic analysts.

Sergey is a man with a remarkable background. Now he’s someone who, in his own words, promotes political science. He does weekly streams where he talks to people for two hours, answers questions and shares his thoughts. He’s got an original style. Sergey is our Belarusian Dr. House.

He also used to work for Lukashenko in the ’90s? He was on his team when he won the election. Yeah, we talked about it. Sergey doesn’t get upset about it. He just says he did his job well. If you’re wondering, I don’t think that line on Sergey resume is embarrassing, “1994: Lukashenko’s office.”

It’s just an interesting fact in his biography. This makes Sergey an extra valuable expert —  he directly interacted with that person. You were on Aleksandr Lukashenko’s team when he was running for president in 1994. How did he change in these 27 years? He changed in obvious ways. First off, charisma.

I’m a believer in the theory that charisma is a quality of your body, it’s physiological. It fades with age. It starts to fade after 45 or 50. In that sense, he got old and lost all of it. Though he still think he’s got it. He used to be a wonderful and powerful orator.

He was someone who could polemicize like a machine gun. But if you spend years doing seven-hour monologues instead of real press conferences, which you’ve got over in Russia too, with the pre-approved questions, you become unable to answer a question properly. The second thing is staying in power for too long.

In this time, he’s… Since around the late ’90s, he’s set up a system that he controls completely. Meaning, all officials on all levels are approved by either Lukashenko himself or by people he’s approved. As a result of all this, he became absolutely convinced that he’s a world-class leader and a genius.

He surrounded himself with people who constantly tell him how awesome he is and that all other politicians are nothing next to him. He once said that European politicians “had no balls”. He seems kind of obsessed with the topic of balls. He thinks of Putin with a little condescension too, I feel,

Because in his mind, unlike Putin, he won the election himself, fair and square, rather than given power on a silver platter as Yeltsin’s successor. What about those pictures from Sochi? Oh, no! That’s, uh, that’s- He’s a master pretender. — You see, he has a… — When he needs to be a doll?

Yes! He has a… He’s a very tactile man. He’s all about communicating in person. He wants to touch, and brace, and lean down, and use a heartfelt tone when need be. Putin understands that. He knows that he’s probably a bit susceptible to this hypnosis. That’s why lately, he’s been favoring talking to Lukashenko

Over their “Skype for czars” or whatever that thing is called. But when they meet in person, all his tricks are as effective as ever. He makes all those promises, then goes home and is like: “Well… Of course, we will amend the Constitution, but you can’t just…” And he just goes back on everything. [Vilnius, Lithuania] — You made a career at EPAM. — Yes. [Pavel Liber] [Programmer] [Pavel Liber] [Former department head at EPAM] [(capitalization ~$30 billion)] [Programmer] [Pavel Liber] [Creator of Golos (“Voice/Vote”) platform] [Former department head at EPAM] [(capitalization ~$30 billion)] [Programmer] [Pavel Liber]

[From: Minsk] [Creator of Golos (“Voice/Vote”) platform] [Former department head at EPAM] [(capitalization ~$30 billion)] [Programmer] [Pavel Liber] [Currently: Vilnius] [From: Minsk] [Creator of Golos (“Voice/Vote”) platform] [Former department head at EPAM] [(capitalization ~$30 billion)] [Programmer] [Pavel Liber] You were a big-time manager at EPAM. You had several thousand people under you in your department.

You had an apartment, a house, a car, a good salary. And you didn’t care about politics at all. But as the 2020 election was nearing, you became interested in politics and created the Golos program, which helped prove that the election was rigged. Can you explain in the simplest terms what this program was?

Sure. This platform basically consisted of two chat bots on Telegram and Viber through which we collected pictures of ballots during the election campaign [sic]. People photographed both sides of their ballots and sent them in. We, in turn, tried to estimate the election results ourselves by comparing them to official Election Committee statements.

The problem in Belarus is that the election is not transparent at all. People put their ballots in boxes, then silence, and then they announce the result on TV. — The final result? — Correct. Nobody can see intermediate results. The observers can’t see the ballots, which is very important.

Belarusians play this game after every election: “You vote for him?” “No.” “Me neither. He still won. How is that possible?” We figured, since we do get the final statements that show how many votes, say, Lukashenko got, but we don’t have the ballots, we can ask people to photograph their ballots

And send them to our platform to compare the results. To be as accurate as possible and to avoid duplication, we asked people to photograph both sides of the ballot, because even though ballots are anonymous, the law requires the reverse of each ballot to be signed

By two representatives of the election committee working at the site. These two signatures essentially serve as each ballot’s unique ID that attaches ballots to the right polling place and lets you tell them apart. Now imagine a polling place somewhere in Minsk.

People come in, put a cross in the ballot, take pictures of both sides and upload them to our platform. Later that night, a statement is released saying that Lukashenko got 1000 votes, Tihanovskaya, 100. Whereas we have 800 pictures of ballots for Tihanovskaya on our platform,

Both sides, signatures of the polling place staff and all. That’s how Golos found all the discrepancies between official polling statements and real pictures of real ballots that voters sent to us. Who checked for duplicates? We had a neural network that checked…

Well, first off, all pictures were unique. And second, the signatures were too. You can’t make two perfectly identical signatures. A million and 200 thousand people had registered on our platform within two weeks ahead of the election. If you extrapolate this to Russia, it’s like 11 or 12 million Russians registering in two weeks.

Right? So… We received 550 thousand ballots. We didn’t try to work out the exact numbers, because you obviously can’t bring everyone to your platform this quick. But we did analyze individual polling places that released final statements where we could compare pictures to statement figures. Same thing with the coronavirus.

It’s incredible how much external factors dictate his behavior. He originally denied the coronavirus. All those popular memes with the… — Hockey… — Fridge and garlic. There was so much! Vodka, tractors… Everything was a cure.

[“There are no viruses here. I don’t see it.”] [Lukashenko: “No Belarusians have died] [from the coronavirus.”] [“The tractor will cure anyone.”] [Lukashenko suggested fighting the coronavirus] [with vodka and sauna] [Lukashenko said that hockey was a cure from] [the coronavirus. “It’s not a virus. It’s a psychosis.”] – There was so much! Vodka, tractors… Everything was a cure.

[“There are no viruses here. I don’t see it.”] [Lukashenko: “No Belarusians have died] [from the coronavirus.”] [“The tractor will cure anyone.”] [Lukashenko suggested fighting the coronavirus] [with vodka and sauna] [Lukashenko said that hockey was a cure from] [the coronavirus. “It’s not a virus. It’s a psychosis.”] – People were dying and he would blame it on them. “Why would he go outside with his body mass?”

People were dying and he would blame it on them. “Why would he go outside with his body mass?” All the stuff he said. It was crazy. Lukashenko made coronavirus denial a part of his… “I’m so brave. It can’t hurt me.” But then people from the opposition came up with this slogan

During the fourth wave of covid, “If you’re against Lukashenko, wear a mask.” You’re not gonna believe what happened. They started removing those stickers and posters from public transport and PSA boards in buildings that said, “Please wear a mask to protect your respiratory system.” — So that… — …people wouldn’t wear them? — Yes!

— This is Golos? — Yes, this is Golos. We have overall voting statistics. There’s a map with all the results on the community page. Red is for polling places where the results were clearly faked. Take any red polling place. Basically, the statement says that Tihanovskaya got 206 votes.

And there are 735 pictures of Tihanovskaya ballots. You can check out the statement. There’s a photograph. A statement is the final..? Yeah, it’s the official statement of the election committee. And actually, they only released about a quarter of the statements, 1300 out of 6000.

— And it’s one of the reasons the people were outraged. — Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can check out the pictures from the polling place. Here, as you can see. We have pictures with passports. Those we hide. So for the first time in the history of Belarus,

You have perfectly transparent election results, even if they’re partial, where you can see all the ballots and all the statements, all in one place. Did Lukashenko play a role in the Belarusian IT wonder? Yes, of course. He could’ve stabbed it, but instead, he allowed it to exist. That’s a playing role.

He thinks he’s their benefactor because he allowed them to do it. He merely allowed it. But then he convinced himself that he co-created it, which is total nonsense. And actually, Tsepkalo, one of the presidential candidates, worked hard to debunk this myth. The thing is, by 2021, IT was the last remaining

Growing industry that you could… The last success story you could brag about. And of course, Lukashenko took full credit for it. In his own mind, he… He’s completely… [*Or Khlestakov. A character in Nikolay Gogol’s] [1836 play The Government Inspector.] – He’s Hlestakov*, a classic Hlestakov. For real, no joke.

[*First day of school in Belarus,] [among many other countries.] – There’s a famous story where he once came to a school on September 1* for some reason and told everyone that Elon Musk gave him a Tesla. And he told it almost exactly like Gogol’s Hlestakov:

“I’m pals with Pushkin too. I’ll sometimes stumble into him: ‘How are you, my friend Pushkin?’ ‘Oh, not so well.'” I was out and about, and Elon Musk saw me and said: “You look like a fool on two wheels. Here’s a Tesla.” He was dead serious! — But Elon Musk debunked it? — Of course!

Somebody asked him on Twitter. He said, “Uh, sorry, no.” But he tells these stories about himself. He’s literally Hlestakov. He believes, and he’s told this to everybody, [*Or Gorbachev.] – that Gorbachiov* invited him to give his opinion on the 500 Days Program.

[500 Days was a canned strategy to transform] [USSR’ planned economy into a market one] – He started everything; he came up with the IT thing, is what he believes.

[500 Days was a canned strategy to transform] [USSR’ planned economy into a market one] – Nourished it with his left tit. It’s an actual quote. [Lukashenko, on the creative part of the nation:] [“I nourished them all with my left tit.”] – Nourished it with his left tit. It’s an actual quote.

[Lukashenko, on the creative part of the nation:] [“I nourished them all with my left tit.”] – But that’s not what actually happened. This industry already existed. Somebody just suggested luring it out of the shadows with low taxes so the industry could incorporate and develop.

“Yes, they’ll be unequal business conditions, but it’ll be a taxable industry.” And that’s what happened. Somebody basically brought these documents to him, and he went: “This better work! This better bring the money back to our country!” What else could he have said? He doesn’t know how it works.

He knows how export and import schemes work. He knows using Esambayev’s Foundation early into his presidency [Mahmud Esambayev, Soviet ballet dancer, choreographer] [and actor. In 1995, a Foundation named after him was] [founded in Belarus, which got customs preferences] [from the government] – He knows using Esambayev’s Foundation early into his presidency

[Mahmud Esambayev, Soviet ballet dancer, choreographer] [and actor. In 1995, a Foundation named after him was] [founded in Belarus, which got customs preferences] [from the government] – to produce contraband alcohol and ship it to Russia and things like that.

[Mahmud Esambayev, Soviet ballet dancer, choreographer] [and actor. In 1995, a Foundation named after him was] [founded in Belarus, which got customs preferences] [from the government] – What is IT? It’s something ephemeral. What is IT? It’s something ephemeral.

And since he was clueless about it, he let it be, and that allowed it to grow. What was the result according to your tally? Originally, we didn’t plan to calculate the results, because our focus was on anomalies at polling places.

At first, we proved that the election was rigged, and that was enough for us. Only about a year later, with the help of some math analysts that joined us, we were able to more or less recreate the real picture. How did we recreate it?

Well, let’s say there was a neighborhood in Minsk with five polling places where according to official statements, Tihanovskaya had won. Golos had pictures in favor of Tihanovskaya, only we had 600 of them, while the statements, on average, said 1200. This told us that in that neighborhood, at those polling places,

Golos had about a half of local Tihanovskaya supporters. Extrapolating this method on all polling places in the country, because we basically had all the polling places covered, we worked out that had the election been fair, Tihanovskaya would’ve won. We came out with something like 52% of votes, or about three million.

Lukashenko had 38% max. More realistically, we believe it was 28 to 30%. — But not 3%. — No, not 3%, of course. I don’t believe in the whole 3% story. Obviously, Lukashenko has supporters. They’re not 3%. They’re not the majority either, fortunately. They’re somewhere within 25 to 30%.

And various public polls do confirm that. — You mentioned negative selection. — Absolutely. — So people with amputated political wills. — Absolutely. Completely. Is proactiveness amputated? By the way, you’re not gonna believe this. Olga Loyko told me…

[Olga Loyko, editor-in-chief of the political-economic section] [of TUT.BY. Has been under arrest since 18 May 2021] – She was the person that interviewed officials. She was friends with them. She enjoyed it. You know, being personal. She saw something in them! Because when you work at this juncture,

Sooner or later, you become an “it” connoisseur. “This is total scum. These ones are so-so.” And on people that were considered reformers, she said with a degree of surprise: “And he’s like, ‘It’s all I’m good for.'”

She’s like: “Are you insane? You’re still a young guy. What do you mean ‘all I’m good for’?” Like, how can you say that? What are you good for? Paper pushing? Keeping your head down and writing down Lukashenko’s blather at those meetings? We had this huge meme.

It was one of the pros of Belarusian TV switching to HD broadcasting. You can now sometimes tell what they’re… They accidentally pointed the camera, and the written down text was: “Short on cash. Not enough Mercedeses.” “Chicks in the back…” Probably meant “backseat.” Something crazy. Someone wrote that down during..?

Like students in class! See, they’re afraid of having eye contact with him, because he’ll go: “Oh, you have something to say?” — and they’re done! So they sit and write. Just pure Eastern despotism. And they actually believe that they have no place outside this system, because “it’s all I’m good for.”

“It’s all I’m good for?” And what is “it?” Literally carrying papers from one desk to another? While you were working on Golos, nobody knew it was your project. — Correct? — Yes. You announced that it was created by you and your colleagues something like ten days after the…

We announced it the same day we released our report, on August 20. — But you had to leave Belarus long before that. — Yes. You left in late July. Yes. I left in late July. On the 23 or 24. On the 24, I think.

Because I got a call from someone I know whose work relates to state security, obviously, I’m not giving any names, and he told me: “Pasha…” Golos had been announced by that point, but nobody yet knew what it was or what it could end up sparking. He said: “Pasha, um…”

“Pertinent folks know about this project and that you’re working on it, “so I highly recommend that you leave the country, or you will be arrested.” This was said in no uncertain terms. And because the phrase “we know what you’re up to” was used,

I immediately knew there was no reason to doubt this source. It became obvious that our application for alternative tallying got excessive attention, so I left the country soon after. But I actually bought a return ticket for August 14. I thought I’d wait it out and come back, but no.

— Your wife was pregnant at the time. — Yes. — Did she leave with you? — No, she stayed in Belarus. We met in… When it became obvious that returning to Belarus was pointless, we decided she’d leave the country too.

I was flying to Kiev on August 14, and she met with me in Kiev. You had the baby… Here, in Vilnius, in early January. A lot of people watching this will wonder: “Couldn’t you just chill? You lost your home country.” Well, the “see no evil, hear no evil” attitude is not how we choose to live our lives. We couldn’t stand idly and turn a blind eye to the horrible beatings and the injustice. How could one?

If you could take the place of one of the 20-year-old or 18-year-old children in prison and do their time, we would’ve done it in a heartbeat. But to turn a blind eye on the beatings, and the violence, and the injustice… We’ve always spoken up. Many do say that!

“You had a dacha, an apartment, a car. What more did you want?” What do you tell them? I tell them… I don’t just care about myself. I don’t see a future for my grandchildren. I’m now so… I watch all these shows now, like The Good life,

And I think: “Goodness! We have such an intelligent younger generation!” Every new guest they have on is smarter than the last! I got involved, because I… Because the things that… No swearing, right? The things that that creature did, it’s just… it’s a personal offense. The things he did to the people, beating, and maiming, and killing them. The election! It’s a personal offense. I don’t like it. I…

Yeah, I now have problems, I lost a lot, but I couldn’t do it any other way. It’s not enough now to just stay out of politics in Belarus.

[*The Great Purge or the Great Terror.] [Between August 1936 and March 1938,] [700,000 to 1.2 million were killed.] – The repression in Belarus has indeed approached the 1937* levels of severity. Somebody could report you, and they’d take you away. No one in Belarus can feel safe today.

When you don’t have the basic needs from Maslow’s pyramid covered, like safety, you don’t care about anything else, like politics or activism or whatever. Well, you might say, had you stayed out of politics in 2020, this wouldn’t have happened. You can’t be sure. I mean…

How do we know it wouldn’t have happened? Maybe it could have. I believe that the biggest consequence of 2020 was that the Belarusian people finally realized what was happening. Prior to that, the state did everything to isolate the nation from politics. I believe the same thing is happening in Russia.

“We’ll figure everything out without you. We’ll assign the right people.” “You just stay at your jobs and stay out of it.” “If you don’t, you’ll get hurt.” When somebody keeps telling the same story for 26 years, it becomes irksome and people lose trust. As Golos showed, they lose trust for a good reason.

So in 2020, people were suddenly like: “What the hell is this?” “They’re killing people in the streets!” And what for? For nothing! That’s the weirdest part: had the Belarusians tried to stage an armed coup, that would’ve been a different story. But Belarusian protests were perfectly peaceful.

And things that basically mean nothing can now get you in prison. That’s absolutely crazy. And 2020 showed that this can happen in the middle of Europe. So nobody’s completely safe from it. Had the 2020 election been nice and quiet, something would’ve happened this year, and it would’ve all been the same.

Life was getting harder every year. It was getting worse. And we knew that when our children were old enough to live independently, it would be unbearable for them. But we do have clean streets! Yeah! Thanks to Lukashenko! He personally cleans them. Of course. But it was tough economically?

Very tough. And it was getting worse every year. Companies going out of business; wages down; prices up. You used to be able to afford to travel to other countries. But at this point, it’s… You make just enough to buy food. And maybe some clothes. The bare minimum. Your family’s fed.

We were basically like slaves! No wonder they say, if you make just enough to buy food, you’re a slave. There are several stereotypes about Belarus. For example, when modern Russian communists praise Lukashenko, they say: “Our ZIL factory is dead. Belarusian factories are up and running. BelAZ is standing.” BelAZ is standing.

But the rest… The patient is more dead than alive. It’s actually a myth that… Lukashenko loves to brag that he’d preserved all of the Soviet assets. In reality, a huge portion of our industrial power was lost. Machine tool manufacturing is basically gone. Measuring device manufacturing is basically gone. Microelectronics is basically gone.

If you look at our export basket, you’ll see clear degradation. In modern economic theory, the most popular subject is the economics of growth. Not your statics, but your dynamics: what makes you richer? The consensus is that it’s all about the changes in the export basket. If you start manufacturing and exporting goods

That are relevant in rich countries, you yourself become richer. “You are what you eat” describes humans. “You are what you export” describes economies. And the Belarusian export basket has been devolving over time. It’s been gravitating towards… High-tech is going away, the high added value stuff.

We’re left with raw materials and basic processed goods, which are potassium fertilizers, oil products and agriculture, the three major pillars. Stuff upstream is doing very badly. For context, the dividends of state property, which covers about 60% of all assets in Belarus, it’s huge…

The combined dividends of all state property are less than the dividends of Gazprom Transgaz [Gazprom Transgaz Belarus is a subsidiary] [of Russia’s Gazprom] – which operates the pipeline network that delivers gas to Europe, the Yamal–Europe pipeline. which operates the pipeline network that delivers gas to Europe, the Yamal–Europe pipeline. Friendship.

— You mean a bunch of those factories are net losers? — Absolutely. Chronic net losers. — They only continue to run for their public function? — Yes. [*Towns or cities whose economies are dominated by] [and depend on a single industry or company.] – So that people in monotowns* have jobs to go to.

Exactly right. Major companies serve more as welfare bodies, because it’s implicit unemployment aid rather than wages. There’s a cool show on Netflix called How To Become a Tyrant. They explore all these textbooks, looking at Hitler, at Gaddafi and all the others. If you extrapolate this series on Belarus,

Things are following the same scenario. Repression. The intelligentsiya, businessmen and the like leave the country, which is already happening. Economic problems begin to ramp up because all the thinkers and entrepreneurs have left. When the economy becomes unstable and you can no longer tell tall tales about the bright future,

Dictators quickly start a war somewhere to distract the populace from economic troubles. Lukashenko now tells on every corner how he and Putin will go to war against Ukraine, and Europe, and everyone else. By the way, how many NATO tanks have you counted approaching Vilnius?

Clanking their tracks only 30 kilometers away from the Belarusian border. (laughs) I’m thinking zero, right? But for Lukashenko they exist. At least in his speeches. And unfortunately, all these scenarios keep repeating themselves. They all follow the same scenarios and methods. Belarus is currently very clearly following this sequence.

Knowing Lukashenko, the war is probably going to be a made-up one. I doubt someone will start a real war for his benefit. Yelena, you served in the Belarusian military for 16 years. Sixteen and a half. Where? Republic of Belarus Armed Forces, AD. — AD? — Air defense. [Yelena Smoldareva] [Military] [Yelena Smoldareva]

[From: Grodno] [Military] [Yelena Smoldareva] [Currently: Białystok] [From: Grodno] [Military] [Yelena Smoldareva] I was in comms, I was in secret ops… My most recent job was warehouse manager. Yelena Smoldareva is a mother of several children who served in the Belarusian military for many years. Yes. I believe she was 3.5 years away from retirement.

She left her husband and her job and submitted a report saying, “I choose the people.” And left Belarus. They had just sounded the training alarm. I needed someone to watch the kids, because it’s round the clock duty. I drove the kids and went straight to the square.

And I witnessed with my own eyes this situation where they were simply battering people. Where they were… I dunno, obliterating them? People came to the square to voice their displeasure that their votes had been stolen. And during this peaceful gathering,

They sent in the riot police, and they dragged people away and beat them up. Even random families passing by. I saw this family, man, woman and child, and they jumped them, so he covered his wife and child, and they just gave it to him with batons. It was terrifying.

I ended up with a group of young people I didn’t know. When the riot police started grabbing us, they pulled me out and we ran together. It was a horrifying experience. Because it’s modern times and because I always… When I served in the military, I genuinely believed

That the purpose of the military was to serve the people, not to serve the status quo and Lukashenko. I continued to go to all the rallies. They were permitted for about a week. I was in the human chains too. I’d come from work and go stand alongside those girls.

We stood as long as we could. We had this propaganda where they showed us the Jasmine Revolution and the Orange Revolution [The Jasmine Revolution, public unrest] [in Tunisia in the winter of 2010-2011] – We had this propaganda where they showed us the Jasmine Revolution and the Orange Revolution

[The Jasmine Revolution, public unrest] [in Tunisia in the winter of 2010-2011] – and said it was all European propaganda and… Sorry, what was it like? They gathered you in a room? Yes, they gathered us in a big room. Our commander and his deputies were already there.

They played this video explaining how these revolutions were orchestrated, the Russian protests (of 2011-2013), the Maidan and how they’re paid for by Europe. By that point, I knew what was up, because as you can imagine, rumor travels. They’d done it at one military base — it’s gonna happen at yours too.

Many of us realized that this situation was inevitable. I took a sheet of paper, a folder and during the… I mean I went to all the rallies and never hid it. I talked. I shared my views. So obviously it was reported to our commander. I had offenses thrown my way

That I’m unstable and trusting me with a gun… Because I was the checkpoint officer and had two or three soldiers under me. So I shouldn’t be trusted with a gun because nobody knows what orders I could give to my subordinates. They shamed and humiliated me during staff gatherings

When the entire regiment was gathered at the base square. And during this meeting, I wrote a report and handed it to him. He said, “If somebody disagrees with our President’s policy,” “you can submit your resignation reports by 4 PM today.”

I wrote mine during the meeting and gave it to him at the end. Anybody else did that? Not immediately. After I left, two more people resigned. But they phrased their reports as they were told by the commanding officer. They’re currently purging even the central bodies of law enforcement agencies.

According to this alliance called BYPOL, [BYPOL, a project started by Belarusian ex-law enforcement] [staff that investigates crimes of the Belarusian government] [and human rights violations in Belarus] – the Belarusian ex-military,

[BYPOL, a project started by Belarusian ex-law enforcement] [staff that investigates crimes of the Belarusian government] [and human rights violations in Belarus] – they believe that up to 50% of unloyal staff will be purged. they believe that up to 50% of unloyal staff will be purged. So the divide was pretty serious.

At least in terms of signing another candidate’s nomination sheet or voting differently. They tried to make your life harder. How exactly? Yes. Well, first off, they annulled the money that I paid for the contract. I needed to pay it. I signed a contract in January. On August 17 I resigned.

So the money that was paid for this period, I needed to pay it back. I did. Let’s clarify. There’s a thing in the Belarusian military where at the start of the year… Not the start of the year. It depends on the duration of your contract. You’re paid a certain amount based on it.

It’s a safety measure. It ensures that the person would work the three or five years that they signed up for. Otherwise, they’d have to give this money back. But if you complete your, say, five-year contract… If you complete it, you’re good, you don’t have to return anything.

You can freely resign when your contract runs out. But you’re also paid a wage besides this amount? — So it’s like an advance bonus? — It’s a bonus for the military, yes. — How much were you giving back? — Eight thousand. — Umm… — Belarusian rubles.

[8000 Belarusian rubles ≈ €2700] – Yes, I gave it all back. [8000 Belarusian rubles ≈ €2700] – I got help… from kind strangers. I got help… from kind strangers. I transferred this money. But I was in the middle of…

I was giving interviews and featured in reports. I was in the headlines. “Female officer resigns.” After that, it all started. I started getting calls from my former superiors, former commanders. They said things like: “If you go to another one of these… If you say another word about…”

“You’re speaking up when you need to keep your mouth shut.” Another thing was, one of my kids drew a white-red-white flag in class. — What form? — During class. During class, in school. — What year of school? — He was in third year. They had a class, a lecture,

And they were learning to draw flags. He drew a white-red-white flag. They immediately took my oldest son to a “survey.” He called. I said, “Don’t write anything.” The questions were horrible. Do you discuss politics at home? Do you feel happy with your family? Does your mom go to rallies often?

For a 10-year-old child, that’s… These questions are incompatible with his age. After that, since they had annulled this money, they were planning to take my case to court. The prosecutor called and said she was putting together a case against me and that they put me on the Defense Ministry’s list of debtors.

The Defense Ministry list of… — Because you sort of hadn’t returned the bonus? — Yes, yes. They said: “Since you…” There was a state-wide announcement that Lukashenko had ordered to annul all the money that was returned with the help of any of the foundations that assisted with these refunds.

Because a lot of people quit. She said, “I have prepared the case against you,” and then she said that… I said: “Can you please give me a little time? I’ll find the money.” But besides this refund… After my son drew the white-red-white flag,

We got visits from the social services and our district police officer. They said things like: “It’s all on you.” They started threatening to take away my children. You see, I have four children. I used to have five. My oldest son had cerebral palsy. He died at 17.

[*Belarusian public award given to women who had] [given birth to and raised five or more children.] – So I was awarded the Medal of the Mother*. I said: “How is this possible?” “You were here with the same group of people. Everything was great. What is this now?”

They said: “You gotta understand, it’s all your fault.” “We’re powerless here.” “We get it, but a decree is a decree and an order is an order.” — They unambiguously hinted that they’d take your children? — Yes, yes. And simultaneously you were under pressure from the…

I wanna clarify this for the Russian viewers ’cause it’s very foreign. — If you quit, you have to return the bonus. — Yes. You returned it with the help of foundations… — …that helped people that were being persecuted. — Yes. Lukashenko issued a decree saying “we don’t count these returns.”

— Because it’s dirty money or something. — Yes. — So they started a case against you because you didn’t return the money “properly.” — Yes, yes. Well, you see, how do I explain this? I quit by mutual agreement of the parties. Because that’s the kind of resignation I filed. They couldn’t straight up sue me.

I hadn’t had a single penalty in 16.5 years. They couldn’t pin some sort of shortage on me. ‘Cause there are comments saying “she’s a thief, that’s why she fled the country.” Not a single penalty. So I wasn’t afraid of being sued for anything work-related.

I was surgical with my work: very accurate, very precise, so… They tried to intimidate me by saying that the KGB would be handling my resignation. I said: “Great. Be my guest.” Intimidation tactics. When and why did you leave? They called and said about the criminal case.

Before that, we got the visit from the social services. I asked the prosecutor to stay the case until Monday and we left on that weekend. — But you were on the travel ban list? — At the Defense Ministry. Border control wasn’t aware of the list? I don’t know about now. Maybe they do.

But that window, I guess… — The weekend? — Yes. How did you leave? I packed two or three suitcases, stuff the children would need, and headed… nowhere. — Did you take a car? — No, we took the bus. — Were you nervous crossing the border? — Yeah, I was nervous.

I was scared I could end up in a police van, and my children, in an orphanage. What did you think once you crossed it? I felt tremendous relief. I realized it was all behind us. The fear, the… I knew I was heading nowhere, with no idea what would happen next.

But at least my children, the most important thing in my life, were with me. Can you describe living in a country where you could get “the visit” at any moment? First off, people live in constant anticipation of this visit. It’s pretty anxious living.

Because of that, a lot of them leave and stay in Ukraine or Georgia. They’re officially employed in their Belarusian companies, but physically, they live in Georgia. A Belarusian can stay in Georgia 365 days a year, [*364 days] – leave, cross the border, and stay another year.

Leave, cross the border, and stay another year. So a lot of IT specialists, despite all the paperwork indicating that they’re in Belarus, live abroad. Because all IT companies today operate in remote mode. So you don’t need to work at an office or something.

At the same time, a lot of people use special signals and secret chat rooms, and unfollow the channels declared extremist and clear message histories. It’s an everyday routine, like brushing your teeth. Before going outside, you unfollow and clear your messages, because they could come up to you and search your phone,

And you’d get an extra 30 days of detention or a fine or whatever for that follow. So yeah, the current environment is really anxiety-inducing. And people do a lot of different things to simply stay a little safer. The numerous videos of extreme violence in Belarus.

— Was it just the law enforcement? Or did the military… — They were involved. The airborne forces did it. The air defense did it in Minsk. Certain military units were involved. Talking about your colleagues. Let’s say you don’t know how the KGB minds work — you haven’t worked with them.

Let’s talk about the people you’ve worked with, the military. What makes them do it, beat people up? I guess what makes them do it is that they all figure: “I have an apartment.” “I have a job. I have a nice chair. I have my shoulder marks.”

Losing all of it… Some of them are retiring in a couple of years. Some aim to become generals. And give these kinds of orders. So it’s probably… Probably cowardice. People are afraid to change something and switch to a different stance, a different side.

They lack the backbone to speak their minds and their opinions. Why? Because you don’t do that in our country. Can you freely speak up in Russia? Like, express your belief or something. You’re not afraid to, right? Feels like the times are changing.

Sure, but in Belarus, it’s been like that for the 27 years he’s been in power. Freedom of speech is foreign to us. We don’t know what it is. Even ours? Which itself is quite limited. We don’t even have that. We know that if you speak up, there WILL be consequences.

We don’t have that. Like, the children… We were raised this way. [*”Sovok” is derogatory slang for the Soviet Union.] [“Sovok” literally means “scoop.”] – I believe that everyone from post-sovok* has to visit the Solidarity Centre in Gdansk. This museum shows the entire uprising, how they fought against communism. It’s the only museum where I cried. Maybe it shows my poor grasp on art, but still.

I cried from the thought that in 1989, the Poles defeated communism, while in my country, in 2019, we still hadn’t. That hurts. But we’re heading there, with abandon. I think our country’s leadership thinks that this emigration is a victory. That’s in relation to Soviet thinking.

Because in 1985, you could exile all the dissenters from the Soviet Union and never hear from them, because there was no Internet. Today, digital Belarus is already formed, certain institutes are coming together, and lots of productive things are being done. While our government thinks it’s…

Not “our government.” The people that have seized power in Belarus. They think us leaving the country is a victory. When I came here… I’m not exactly sure about the factual side, but I like the vibe of this idea. They say about Poles that they had three very important uprisings in their history.

First is the uprising of Kastuś Kalinoŭski. [Kastuś Kalinoŭski (1838-1864), poet and writer who] [in 1963 and 1964 led an uprising for the independence] [of Poland from the Russian Empire] – It’s a common one for us, Lithuania and Belarus.

[Kastuś Kalinoŭski (1838-1864), poet and writer who] [in 1963 and 1964 led an uprising for the independence] [of Poland from the Russian Empire] – — Belarus, Poland… — Uh-huh.

[Kastuś Kalinoŭski (1838-1864), poet and writer who] [in 1963 and 1964 led an uprising for the independence] [of Poland from the Russian Empire] – Belarus, Poland and Lithuania were in it together. Belarus, Poland and Lithuania were in it together. Then they had the Warsaw uprising during World War II.

— In the ghetto? — The ghetto, yes. And of course, the Solidarity uprising. [Solidarity is a Polish trade union created in the wake] [of mass strikes in 1980. In 1989 and 1990, the union] [ran a successful peaceful anti-communist revolution] – If you look at their success rate, Kastuś Kalinoŭski was hanged.

[Solidarity is a Polish trade union created in the wake] [of mass strikes in 1980. In 1989 and 1990, the union] [ran a successful peaceful anti-communist revolution] – That’s a defeat.

[Solidarity is a Polish trade union created in the wake] [of mass strikes in 1980. In 1989 and 1990, the union] [ran a successful peaceful anti-communist revolution] – The Warsaw uprising… Tons of people killed. Obviously, defeat. Solidarity fought for ten years.

In Poland, the victors are those who fought for their convictions. That’s the belief. So if you hold onto your truth and keep fighting for it, that’s victory, not driving the opposition out of the country. They drove us out of the country, but we’re still moving forward.

A popular comment on YouTube: “I’m waiting to see “a gargantuan, hundreds of kilometers-long line of cars “of all those who left coming back to Belarus.” Absolutely. I envision more than just a line of cars. I mean… See, my visualization is a Victory Train. Remember those echelons of demobilized soldiers

Returning from Europe to the Soviet Union? Remember what they looked like? The people singing to squeezeboxes? The flowers, the banners. People hanging out the windows. It’s gonna be something similar. Don’t you think..? You often hear comparisons to World War II in this context. Don’t you think they’re inappropriate?

They are, but it’s what it’s gonna LOOK like. — Sasha Ivulin ran the biggest YouTube channel in Belarus. — Mm-hmm. — You were both arrested. — Yes. They let you go after 15 days. How long has Sasha been in prison now? [Aleksandr Ivulin has been in custody] [since June 3, 2021]

You were the channel’s cameraman and editor. Basically, you and Sasha were producing it together. Hey, everyone! We’re at Olimpiyskiy Center. You’re watching the banned channel Chestnok. And we have a new video! Tun-tun! When they arrested Sasha, you decided that the channel should keep going.

Hey, everyone! I’m not Sasha Ivulin, but this is Chestnok YouTube channel. Tun-tun. — You were detained on the same day. — Yeah, yeah. — The excuse is that you had the white-red- white flag on you balcony. — Yes. [Yaroslav Pisarenko] [Journalist] [Yaroslav Pisarenko] [From: Minsk] [Journalist] [Yaroslav Pisarenko]

[Currently: Kiev] [From: Minsk] [Journalist] [Yaroslav Pisarenko] — Was it there? — No. This whole arrest was crazy. Sasha and I were roommates. We were renting a three-room apartment. I was at home, watching What Happened Next? You know what happened next? I heard a sound… Sasha was at practice. That’s the weirdest part.

Sasha was at practice. And I heard weird rattling at the door. I went to check it. The door opens… And I see lights, silhouettes. There were like eight of them. They rushed in, slammed me against the wall. They were like, “Hey, that’s the other guy.” It was complete nonsense from the start.

There was no flag, but why did they arrest Sasha in the street? If you look at the court hearing… A police colonel was patrolling our street, and he didn’t go to the apartment, he arrested the person in the street. Like he knew who lived there. Like he did some incredible work and research.

After which they arrested Sasha, then came to our place and arrested me. Was there no flag then or ever? We had the flag out in August of 2020. So like a year prior. Well, not a year, but like, it was there… eight months prior.

Back when this flag was hanging out of nearly every window in Belarus. Back when it was safe. They hadn’t been coming to people’s homes and fining them. Do you have an idea why Ivulin was put in custody? Yes. For his civic activity and for… It was a simple situation.

One of the goalkeepers on Sasha’s team has a brother that got a huge sentence [The team in question is Minsk football club] [Krumkachy that Ivuling practiced with] – for what happened in August of 2020.

[The team in question is Minsk football club] [Krumkachy that Ivuling practiced with] – They organized a stream to collect donations for the family and the guy himself. They organized a stream to collect donations for the family and the guy himself. Any sort of action of this sort was viewed by the state as…

Anti-state. That’s probably why they took Sasha. Besides, another major factor was that he represented Tribuna.com, which has been vocal about the matter since August 2020. What do you think about the theory that Ivulin is a prisoner of Tribuna? Tribuna is a Belarusian and Ukrainian media connected to Dmitriy Navosha,

And that’s their way of sending their regards. Well, yeah, I think that’s exactly what happened. I heard the theory that Ivulin is essentially Dmitriy’s Navosha’s hostage. It’s a neat theory. Dmitriy Navosha is my former boss at Sports.ru and the owner of Belarusian and Ukrainian Tribuna websites.

He’s an active supported of the 2020 protests and he became proactively associated with the protests after they arrested Roman Protasevich [Former editor-in-chief of Telegram channel Nexta] [Roman Protasevich said that Dmitriy Navosha] [was in Belarusian oppositionist chat rooms] – after they arrested Roman Protasevich

[Former editor-in-chief of Telegram channel Nexta] [Roman Protasevich said that Dmitriy Navosha] [was in Belarusian oppositionist chat rooms] – and he said in interviews that Navosha was in those chat rooms too.

[Former editor-in-chief of Telegram channel Nexta] [Roman Protasevich said that Dmitriy Navosha] [was in Belarusian oppositionist chat rooms] – After that, they declared him an enemy, After that, they declared him an enemy, but since he lives outside Belarus, they took one of the key figures of his company hostage.

I think it’s a coincidence. You see, we’re sitting here analyzing and rationalizing the behavior of unsystematic people that act completely randomly. They put the wheels of violence and terror in motion. And I think they’re not sure themselves how they exercise them.

The version that his relation to Dmitriy Navosha was a constituent of this arrest is very strong and sounds real. I guess the authorities had an inkling that there were big-time Belarusian businesses that operated from abroad involved in the protests, either financially or managerially.

Then Dima came up. And his was among the first specific names. They wanted to see the enemy. And they found him in Navosha. So the stream where they collected donations was definitely a trigger, which went in hand with your theory. There were cases where they just took away the same people again.

We were in the cells with these guys. They live on this… Well, the name of the street doesn’t matter. There was a small rally on this street. They don’t look for those who were in the rally. They’re like, “Let’s see… Previously convicted residents…”

“Bam! Let’s go! You, you and you.” At your door in the morning. Proof? Photographic memory of some road cop or whatever. “Yeah, I remember you!” And the judge is like: “Sounds legit.” Thirty days. Let’s go. I’ve seen my fill of all of it.

Those crazy stories I heard at Okrestina. The things they put people in custody for. I thought: what am I gonna do if I stay in Belarus? I couldn’t do my own thing because it was too scary. If I did and showed even the slightest disloyalty, it would’ve meant prison.

I don’t want to work for a state company, but they don’t want me either. No one’s gonna hire me because I’m on the Belarusian “list of Judas'”. So I’m not gonna find a job, and… What would I do if I stayed? Live with my parents in Orsha and wither away? I dunno.

— You moved to Ukraine. — Mm-hmm. Were you anxious when you were crossing the border? Very much so. Another reason was… I was coming through Russia. It was all legal, but I didn’t want to deal with Belarusian border service. I remember thinking: what if? ‘Cause you can’t know for sure, right?

It probably took us six hours to cross the border. I remembered my entire life maybe seven times in that time. — Russian-Ukrainian border? — Yes. They didn’t let us through immediately. You’re also thinking: “What if in the couple of hours that we’re standing here, wondering, “they change something and send a car after you?!”

I dunno. I was paranoid out of my mind at the time. What were your thoughts when you crossed the border? I was super relieved. I saw this pothole-ridden Ukrainian road. I was traveling with this man. He was Ukrainian. He works somewhere in Siberia, in extractions. Basically, a seasonal worker.

He’d been elbowing me the entire trip, going: “Let’s have a drink.” I was like: “Are you crazy? No, thanks.” After spending the night at this checkpoint, we finally crossed the border at 6 AM. And he’s like, “Well?” I went, “Okay, sure.”

I had a few sips and thought I’d sleep until Kiev like a baby. But I couldn’t because Ukrainian roads… Let’s just say there’s still work to be done. Did I understand correctly from our discussion that you’re one of the people who believe that digital engineering could conquer the world?

That it can be more effective than politics, power and everything else. Yes, I completely believe that because I’m convinced that in about 15 to 20 years, the world will no longer need the institute of state. I think the world will be divided between cities and major companies,

And IT will provide direct connections between all institutes and people. I mean, today, you can reach any person anywhere in the world using digital technologies, establish a direct connection, sell them something, get something in return and so on. And then I envision a major division

Where some countries support it, while others try to establish complete control over the IT industry. Something like what China is trying to do today. It’s gonna be a fascinating new season of Black… Black Mirror, only in real life. — Super Black Mirror. — Yeah, yeah, yeah.

— You’re currently working on something called a “digital state.” — Yes. Can you show and tell? Modern Belarus has many issues. Firstly, Belarusians have spread across the world. It’s hard to bring them together and remind them of each other and their ethnic identities. Basically, helping them abroad is problem number one.

Problem number two is that the coronavirus is still rampant in the country. The regime still does nothing. They even put a ban on any sort of propaganda of mask-wearing and vaccination. But this doesn’t cancel the fact that tons of people don’t have access to medical assistance today.

One of the products we were working on was an online platform that let users consult with doctors. It’s a realized product. It’s been live for five months. It’s a lot like Yandex Health. That’s a very good analogy. It lets Belaruisian doctors who suffered from the regime

Offer consultations to users that seek medical assistance and get donations in return. It’s a totally free service with optional donations. Belarusian analogy of Yandex Health. It’s now up and running. — And it lets doctors that suffered from political repression make a living. — Yes, earn instead of beg.

We also created a legal advice platform within the same framework that allows Belarusians to get legal aid, because a lot of Belarusians today wonder about questions like: what do I do if the Investigative Committee summons me tomorrow? How do I find a lawyer? Should I bring my phone?

What do I do if they order me to unlock it? Lots of people need legal aid. Lots of lawyers lost their licenses. Well, now there’s a platform that lets those lawyers answer people’s legal questions. The next step is the release of this product here, which is two to three months away.

I’ll show it very briefly. They’re still just mockups. This is what it’s gonna look like in two to three months. It’s basically a mobile app for Belarusians where they can ID as a Belarusian either with their voice or using the digital passport recognition system

Built on the distributed data store technology, where the data doesn’t belong to us. The data is in a blockchain, distributed between all users. There’s no regulator, no single database. A Belarusian living in Warsaw can learn about relevant activities in Warsaw, businesses operating in Warsaw,

Belarusian teachers in Warsaw, Belarusians in Warsaw that can help with discounts, business, etc. We wanna organize it into a single ecosystem where a Belarusian can help other Belarusians, get help from others, support Belarusian businesses, get discounts from Belarusian businesses, consult with doctors, consult with lawyers, access long-distance schooling for their children.

It’s a whole ecosystem that is meant to permeate the entire community of Belarusian expats. — Alternative country. — In essence, yes. — Before 2020, you used to work on state television. — Uh-huh. We even watched your live reports before Lukashenko’s Christmas Tournament. Guilty as charged.

How would you react if you saw one of these videos today? I’ve actually rewatched them on purpose. We were having a laugh about how much life’s changed. Maybe that’s the other side of the coin because… I think… What was it, 2020? I worked on TV. A few more years, that would’ve been it.

[Until August 2020, Pisarenko worked on the channel] [Belarus 5. He quit his TV job voluntarily] [when the protests started] – I think… What was it, 2020? I worked on TV. A few more years, that would’ve been it.

[Until August 2020, Pisarenko worked on the channel] [Belarus 5. He quit his TV job voluntarily] [when the protests started] – You become holier-than-thou. You’re like: ‘sall good. You got a job, you got stable pay. You’re content. You become holier-than-thou. You’re like: ‘sall good. You got a job, you got stable pay. You’re content.

This was such a powerful kick up the backside that… it changed you. I understand now that… You watch my old stuff on purpose, the studio stuff, the live reports, to see just how surface-level you used to be. You’d say stuff just to say it.

Stuff like: “People are happy to come to the Christmas Tournament!” You said things without thinking. Stupid things. Just… You’re not gonna say stuff like that now because you look at things differently. Let’s explain for those who don’t know. The Christmas Tournament is a tournament for Aleksandr Lukashenko’s benefit

Where he plays with his friends, it’s an amateur tournament… Well, actual great hockey players sometimes come to play too, let’s be fair, but most of the time, it’s Lukashenko’s tournament where Lukashenko wins, and all that stuff. I’ve only now learned the price of real journalist work,

With fifteen people from TUT.BY in prison, with Sasha in prison. [In May 2021, 15 staff members of TUT.BY were] [arrested. 11 of them are still in custody today] – when fifteen people from TUT.BY in prison, with Sasha in prison.

[In May 2021, 15 staff members of TUT.BY were] [arrested. 11 of them are still in custody today] – I’m only now starting to sort of grow in terms of professionalism, I’m only now starting to sort of grow in terms of professionalism,

Because I’m learning how valuable and powerful it is, to say what you truly think. ‘Cause back then, you didn’t even stop to think. You came in and did things like a machine. It’s terrible. I didn’t understand it then. Now I do.

I might’ve not realized it at all, had 2020 not changed me so much. We’re currently building this new system. It still needs work. It lets Belarusians that left the country, like this here is Warsaw, find other Belarusians that offer services. One person opened a car shop. Another offers haircuts. Another still does manicure.

It lets people within the community support each other. — Like an internal economy. — Essentially, yes. This system basically transforms into a thing of its own. Say a Belarusian moves to Georgia. They need help with starting a business? They’ll find it in this ecosystem.

Or maybe they wish to offer certain services to make ends meet while they’re getting their sea legs. We already have Poland, Georgia… You can check out Georgia. Places where Belarusians will do something for other Belarusians. We’re basically building a supercommunity that permeates all countries and has its own economy,

Because we’re planning to team up with a European fintech, which will let us offer banking services and our own payment system within this ecosystem, including allowing Belarusians in Belarus to transfer money to a European bank. I’d be kinda nervous if I was a government.

[*Or Baikal.] – It sounds very similar to the Chinese Baykal* economy. Baykal was a popular tourist destination before covid. And the Chinese were apparently bringing in lots of money. But we’re now learning that they use Chinese travel agencies, they hire Chinese tour guides that stay in Russia,

They live in hotels built by the Chinese, so all the money stays within the Chinese economy. We’re doing this deliberately, because our primary goal is to support people that were forced to leave the country. A lot of them fled crossing rivers and trekking through woods, and for them, it’s about survival.

And it’s vital for them to start doing something for money, because many of them hesitate to ask for money. It’s very difficult mentally to ask for food money. Earning it is much easier. Well, letting them adapt quicker and other people, help them out, is the primary purpose of this ecosystem.

— You regularly get in touch with Ivulin. — Mm-hmm. — How is he in there? — Better than ever. No, seriously! I might understand him to some degree. Being stuck there is definitely awful. It’s torture. It’s a nightmare. You’re in the dark. I’ll tell you my take on it.

I don’t know if he feels the same. But when you get locked up, you’re like: “Well, that’s it. I did what I could, you guys.” “I accomplished some good things. I gave it my all. Now I pass the baton.” It kind of relieves you of responsibility a little. You let it go.

Yes! That’s it, you’re in a cage. All you can do now is write memoirs and letters and talk to interesting people you meet down there. Being out here, you need to constantly move and stay active. You have a responsibility, and not just for yourself, but for others too.

I don’t know what Sasha’s state of mind is like, but he’s super cheerful. When we talk, it feels like Sasha cheers me up more, than I, him. No, I am, like: “Hang in there, bud! See you out soon!” But he’s extraordinarily cheerful. That’s gotta be his… He’s a big-time optimist. I’m a pessimist.

Or rather a realist, I guess. But he’s like: “Yeah, man! You got this, kid! Give ’em hell! Show ’em how it’s done!” [On 19 January 2022, Aleksandr Ivulin was] [sentenced to two years in a medium-security] [prison for gross misconduct.]

[The court decided that Ivulin and other protesters] [“were walking on road, blocking and obstructing traffic”] [as well as posted on his YouTube channel Chestnok] [“stirring videos aimed to create a negative] [image of acting government”] – [On 19 January 2022, Aleksandr Ivulin was] [sentenced to two years in a medium-security] [prison for gross misconduct.] Biggest propagandist in Belarus is Azarionok. Yeah, he’s the start of Belarusian propaganda. You’re a sewer. Stinking, ridden with rats and mold, poison and crawling vermin. How do Belarusians feel about him? ‘Cause watching those crazy videos, I was sure he had state security with him, like Dmitriy Kiseliov used to have.

I don’t know if he does now. But I heard different stories about Azarionok. That he all but uses the Minsk subway? I think he does use the subway. He, uh… I met some Belarusians yesterday, and they said they were in the same car with him once.

And when Grisha (Azarionok) got out, the whole car started applauding. It was in jest. — Oh, it was in jest? — Yeah, a hundred percent, ’cause people knows what’s up. Grigoriy Azarionok, according to some recent leaks, doesn’t make a lot of money.

He makes less than Belarusian IT pros. His wage is less than $1000. Less than $1000? Less than $1000 when he became the superstar of Belarusian propaganda. It’s not great money. I think if Russian propagandists saw those figures, if they’re real, they’d drop on the floor, laughing. He makes very little.

I don’t understand this person’s motives. — He must genuinely believe it. — Let’s assume. I suspect that the level of competence, professionalism and talent of a lot of people related to the Belarusian government is insanely low, but it’s not lost on them that in a competitive environment, they’d be nobodies.

And 2020, which saw a huge outflow, among TV people too, allowed several people to rise in ranks. Grigoriy Azarionok was certainly one of them. He’s mediocrity that was put at the forefront. Yeah, I think so. It’s not like in Russia where your top propagandists have villas abroad and the like. No. It’s true.

He simply got the opportunity to become somebody. He thought: “I’ll be spitting curses, but at least I’ll… get there.” Pretty much what happened. You see, Azarionok is… How do I put this? He’s a second-generation propagandist. That’s the thing. His father, Azarionok senior, is somebody who became famous

With his “documentary” that was shown on Belarusian television before the 1995 Referendum, which changed the state symbols, the emblem and flag. They got rid of Chase and the white-red-white flag. Well, ahead of the referendum that was supposed to get rid of these symbols that Lukashenko loathed,

[*A political party in Belarus.] – because it had associations with Belarusian People’s Front*, he released a documentary that essentially introduced all the tropes used by modern propaganda. Azarionok junior was in his father’s shadow. And I’m sure his father is finishing what he started through him. — Ouch! — Yeah.

So I’m sure that a lot of the things they use today, seeing Azarionok’s level of intelligence, he couldn’t have put them there himself. References to Christian, or Pagan or other texts. The background music. I don’t believe he has a subjectivity of his own. It’s his daddy.

But he most likely… He grew up with it. He most likely believes this stuff. I think he could be an actual crazy person. — We recently discovered the GUBOP Telegram channel. — Mm-hmm.

[GUBOP is a Telegram channel that posts videos of] [confessions and apologies of Belarusian citizens for] [participating in protests and criticizing the government.] [The confessions are believed to be made under siloviki] [(law enforcement and security agencies) pressure]

[GUBOP is a Telegram channel that posts videos of] [confessions and apologies of Belarusian citizens for] [participating in protests and criticizing the government.] [The confessions are believed to be made under siloviki] [(law enforcement and security agencies) pressure] – Kinda makes your skin crawl.

[GUBOP is a Telegram channel that posts videos of] [confessions and apologies of Belarusian citizens for] [participating in protests and criticizing the government.] [The confessions are believed to be made under siloviki] [(law enforcement and security agencies) pressure] – Um…

[GUBOP is a Telegram channel that posts videos of] [confessions and apologies of Belarusian citizens for] [participating in protests and criticizing the government.] [The confessions are believed to be made under siloviki] [(law enforcement and security agencies) pressure] – The apologies. — It’s the apology channel. — Yes.

— At least from what we saw. — Coerced. Yeah, coerced apologies. It’s fucked up. Y-yeah. I mean, from 2020 we got transferred back to 1937. Same deal, only all-digital. These people think they’re doing their job, that they work to protect “national interests” or whatever.

Well, besides that it’s disgusting, and painful, and genuinely demotivating, I can’t really add anything. But sadly, we have to deal with it and do as much as we can to put an end to it. You know that famous KGB answer to “why do you torture people?”

Because it works. We could be subtler, but this works. Violence works. Same thing here. Propaganda works. And you know very well that it does. You work the nation for several days, and everybody starts to hate Ukraine. You switch off Ukraine — everybody starts supporting the war in Syria. It’s like an on/off switch.

We have another example. We talked with a journalist from west Belarus. He had both his hands broken during the protests. And state propaganda claimed that he was faking it. They got hold of a shot where, before getting his casts, he held up a dog.

He put the dog down and went to get his casts. They were showing this picture everywhere, saying he was faking it. He told us that they wrote about this everywhere for a month, and by the end of the month, he himself started to doubt that he ever had his hands broken.

— It’s an incredible example of how it works. — Yeah, precisely. Your boss was Eysmont. He wasn’t my immediate boss. I only met with him once. And it wasn’t just me. There was a large group of people there. Ivan Eysmont is the husband of Natalya Eysmont.

— She’s Lukashenko’s press secretary and one of his chief advisors. — Yes. You only met with him once, but how would you explain these people’s reasoning? — I mean, they’re not much older than us. — Mm-hmm. They too use the Internet. They watch the stuff we watch.

— They’re doing everything to limit their area of existence and travel to… — Belarus, Russia… — Belarus, Russia, maybe something else. — China. Maybe. Yeah. Because they have no job prospects or what? Sadly, I cannot explain the reasoning of Lukashenko’s press secretary.

No one but her can… Maybe she actually believes it. I don’t know. I can’t speak about her. But what I felt during the meeting with Eysmont was that… He didn’t look at us. He doodled something on a sheet of paper while talking to us. His reasoning was…

First off, he pulled out and put in front of him a folder of printed out chat histories where journalists of Belarus State TV and Radio Company were allegedly getting threatening PMs or whatever from strangers. Speaking for myself, I didn’t get any.

I asked my colleagues, and nobody… I don’t know anyone who actually got those. He was like: “Look what your dear…” — “Look what they’re writing.” — The protesters? “Protestie-less” he called them. He was sitting there doodling, going: “I get it. You’re probably…” He was just staring into his desk and his scribbles.

“Your heart may be in the right place, but they’re all sellouts. I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it all.” Or he went: “The Women’s March. There was a car with flowers. Flowers cost money.” “Somebody paid for it. Who paid for it? Ask yourselves these questions.” Just going on and on about this.

People were asking him reasonable questions like: “I have a female friend who went there of her own volition.” “Okay, your friend’s fine. But it was her and ten others who got paid for it.” That was his reasoning. That they’re all sellouts.

“Good for you that you think about these things, but you don’t quite understand what’s up.” Do you think he actually believed that and was doing good political instructor work, or was he lying? I think he’s too smart to believe that. You gotta admit that… The people in there, they’re not all idiots.

Take Natalya Eysmont. I understand she’s responsible for all the leaks and all the public stuff. Does she realize that she’ll never work with anyone in the progressive world? They all realize it. They just expect this to last a very long time. The question “why is nobody quitting?” is also important because

They’re terrified by the idea that their current situation is finite. So they’re forced to… You get these intricate psychological defense mechanisms, which justify their actions, and how they’re doing the right thing, and how Lukashenko is a genius. She created this famous meme “Dictatorship is our brand,”

Where she tried to explain how it’s better than other methods of decision-making. There are probably other compensatory mechanisms. Like the right to wickedness. I mean she, according to Cyber-Leaks and others, she was at the very least involved in the whole story of beating and death of Roman Bondarenko.

[Roman Bondarenko was a store owner in Minsk.] [In November 2020, he was beaten in front of his building] [by people that came to remove oppositionist paraphernalia.] [They kidnapped Bondarenko and brought him to a police] [station, from where he was taken to a hospital and] [diagnosed with brain swelling, brain injury and body-] [wide bruising. Bondarenko died the next day] – in the whole story of beating and death of Roman Bondarenko.

[Roman Bondarenko was a store owner in Minsk.] [In November 2020, he was beaten in front of his building] [by people that came to remove oppositionist paraphernalia.] [They kidnapped Bondarenko and brought him to a police] [station, from where he was taken to a hospital and] [diagnosed with brain swelling, brain injury and body-] [wide bruising. Bondarenko died the next day] – She was the person who, together with Baskov,

[Roman Bondarenko was a store owner in Minsk.] [In November 2020, he was beaten in front of his building] [by people that came to remove oppositionist paraphernalia.] [They kidnapped Bondarenko and brought him to a police] [station, from where he was taken to a hospital and] [diagnosed with brain swelling, brain injury and body-] [wide bruising. Bondarenko died the next day] – judging by the voices on the recording,

[Dmitriy Baskov, businessman, former chairman] [of Belarus Ice Hockey Association. Suspected] [accomplice in the assault on Roman Bondarenko] – judging by the voices on the recording, [Dmitriy Baskov, businessman, former chairman] [of Belarus Ice Hockey Association. Suspected] [accomplice in the assault on Roman Bondarenko] – hunted down people that organized protest ops in residential areas.

[Dmitriy Baskov, businessman, former chairman] [of Belarus Ice Hockey Association. Suspected] [accomplice in the assault on Roman Bondarenko] – With support from siloviki. “You’ll cover us if something happens, right?” With support from siloviki. “You’ll cover us if something happens, right?” So it’s this…

So it’s like gangster logic, where you initiate someone with blood, and they’re loyal for life? It’s not even like… No, blood initiation is different. This is more like… The right to disgrace. You know? It’s what fascism stands on.

[*Misquotation of a phrase allegedly said by Hitler.] – Remember? “I’ve come to release you from the delusion of consciousness.”* It’s an attempt to justify it with “I’m allowed to; I can do this.” The only problem that, I think, many state servants refuse to admit or simply don’t realize

Is that the system will chew them up. There’s no loyalty there, unlike the system that exists in Russia, the way I understand it. They more or less protect their own. In Belarus, they don’t. No love, or grief, or pity. So I’m sure that one day, they might throw Grisha to the wolves.

Can you give an example? Yuriy Chizh, a Belarusian oligarch who… Used to own FC Dinamo Minsk. He used to own FC Dinamo Minsk, but he got robbed of it after he fell out of favor. They arrested him. He’s currently in prison again. But he was loyal?

He was super loyal. He gathered watermelons with Lukashenko. That’s body access. Yeah. And so… That’s an interesting… There’s body language, and there’s agricultural activity language. Yeah, they did agricultural athletics together. And everyone he invites to these events… …they’re all close-to-the-body people. Yuriy Chizh used to gather watermelons, had a happy life, operated a business, his company Triple, which did a lot of things, including an oil branch, but then one day the news emerged that he was speeding towards the Lithuanian border at 200 or 300 km/h, and he got arrested.

The man put everything on the line. So you can tell that Belarussian oligarchs are nothing like Russian oligarchs. They’re auxiliary tools or “Lukashenko’s wallets” as they call them. They don’t have their own import. And the system WILL chew them up. How do you feel about Stiopa Nexta? Stiopa isn’t about journalism.

It’s a civic initiative and activism, which he entered through journalism. Stiopa is quite young, and I don’t think that during the coordination of operations that they actively did at the start of the protests they paid enough thought to particular people on site. They put people at risk, while being safe themselves?

Yes. It’s a standard complaint and I think it was deserved when people from Minsk said, “While YOU are over yonder.” How much do you think Nexta affected the intensity of the protests? I think he overestimates the influence he had. In the sense that… Did he spread information? Absolutely.

Did he coordinate? To a lesser degree. I mean yes, people waited for his directives, but we saw this phenomenon several times, which you can’t downplay, where Nextra tried to suggest things like: let’s storm… — Drazdy. — The residence? — Yes. Or storm the city council building which he believed to serve

As the siloviki’s base of operations. But nobody did. People certainly received information about… “Let’s go THERE.” But it was always processed by the filter of collective consciousness and all his attempts to radicalize the crowd got dismissed. It was a distinctly peaceful protest. It’s an incredible country to study, because it’s a super religious country where LGBTQ feels totally… well, more or less comfortable. But let’s clarify something for the people that will see all these nice buildings and… To all the Russians that might wish to move here! Plenty of Russian-speakers, not a lot of Russians.

And on November 11… Okay, look. It’s a little more complicated than just “Wow! Awesome! Everyone move to Poland!” The thing is, on November 11, they celebrate Independence Day. And they sometimes permit nationalist rallies. Those times, all Belarussian-language and Russian- language groups send out messages like: “Guys, please, stay home.”

— Why? — Because no one knows what might happen. Because our “friends” could come out? Save for one, who’s under investigation. Because it’s gonna be “Ruska kurwa,” “Białoruska kurwa,” and “Poland for the Polish.” There’s plenty of that here. Does anyone know where most people fled? Poland, Ukraine, Georgia or Lithuania?

So. Georgia was a transit point. Because we still have flights to and from Georgia. That’s why in summer, the size of our diasporas in Batumi and Tbilisi was pretty large. Now, as I understand, they’ve dissipated — people moved on to more traditional places. It’s the “golden circle” of Belarus: Kiev, Warsaw and Vilnius.

Vilnius is a wonderful place for preliminary migration, for Belarusians particularly, because Lithuanians are willing to help us and have simplified the bureaucracy. It’s great for adapting there. Also keep in mind that you can easily communicate in Russian and English. If you speak those languages, you’re golden.

It’s harder to speak about Ukraine because Belarusians diffuse in Ukraine faster. It’s a Russian-speaking environment, and a lot of people sort of calm down. So it’s harder to count heads judging by Sunday rallies or Sunday gatherings. I feel that a lot of people ultimately settled in Warsaw

Because they had a 2010 migration wave and now a bunch of us came. A lot of people choose Poland because they’re not happy about Kiev’s relative chaos and major similarities to Minsk’s Soviet-ness of sorts. And they’re not happy about the prices in Vilnius.

Because I feel like Lithuania wants to go beyond the EU and become Scandinavia. She’s like Denmark Junior. When you buy… When you pay €8 for an 8-minute taxi ride, you realize it’s all great, but kinda expensive. — What was it like moving to another country at sixty… eight, is it? — Nine. (laughs) Sixty-nine.

Maybe it’s because I was with my son, it wasn’t too bad. I knew the language. Not super great, but enough to say what I wanted to say. We met some decent people. My son found a job relatively quickly. What does he do? Seating furniture for a Belgian furniture firm.

— Sales or assembly? — Assembly? — Uh-huh. — So. What do you do? I… I had to start cleaning. I clean houses. I know a lot of people who… I finished the Grodno Chemical Technology School. I know doctors who moved to the US and cleaned houses, so I was okay with it.

Though I told my husband who stayed at home: “When I get back, we’re gonna need a cleaning lady, ’cause I’ll be DONE with cleaning.” It’s not great, but you get used to anything. In the documentary Country in Exile, you talked to Masha Borzunova at the migration center. — In Rukla, was it? — Yes, in Rukla. You crossed the border and surrendered to the border patrol. They took you to Rukla and then took ages to decide…

They even opened a criminal case. Then they closed it. When did they release you? They didn’t release me. I was just getting restless from the… There were so many migrants: Kurds, Syrians, Afghans. The living conditions in the camp had become unbearable.

I started looking for a place to live and found a room in Kaunas. Migrants can file an application and they may permit you to live outside the camp. If you have the right to leave and follow all procedures, they may allow it. I found a room,

Filed an application and they said, “Yeah, sure, you’re free to go.” I’ve been renting a room in Kaunas since late August-ish. Who’s your roomate? Swedish medical student. How do the locals treat Belarusians here? Very nicely. It’s very nice in Lithuania, and in Poland too. I think it’s because Lithuanians get us very well.

They had the Soviet occupation. They had the transitional period after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. So they understand that Belarus is going through something Lithuania has already gone through. So they’re really compassionate and supportive. Although there are also people who support Lukashenko here. I’ve met them personally.

These people say: “What’s your problem?” “You have great roads. You have stable wages.” “They beat people up? Well, stay out of politics, and they won’t.” Belarusian House opened very recently. To be more precise, in the summer of this year (2021). The Vilnius City Hall gave this building to organizations [Violetta Belitskaya] [Razam Organization] – that work to help Belarusians and Belarus. that work to help Belarusians and Belarus. We’re oriented on integration and adaptation to the Lithuanian society

Of Belarusians that unwillingly ended up here. Krampus is an ancient character that originated in the Alps. He always accompanied St. Nicholas, only he was the antagonist. He put children that misbehaved into his sack, took them to the forest, and sometimes ate them on Christmas eve. We have someone like him in Belarus.

Krampus encouraged bad deeds, while St. Nicholas encouraged good ones. And the whole idea is… St. Nicholas gives presents for good deeds, while Krampus promises the same presents, only they turn to coals. Very symbolic, yeah. He’ll be at our celebration tonight, and we’ll try to make Krampus do something good too. Big caroling tree for the children. We believe it’s important because children are the most vulnerable citizens of Belarus, whose opinion nobody asked. Only parents know how tough it is on their little ones. New country, new community, plus covid, which additionally limits communication. He lives in heaven

And records all the good deeds in his book. And once a year, he comes to earth to give children presents. Only… how do you think St. Nicholas learns about all the good deeds? (little girl) He looks from above! Yes, he looks from above. But there are many children!

— What do you think? — He uses GPS! (children) Angel! Look out! Well! What are you all up to? We say that because of covid, modern children are Mowglis. They don’t communicate. I don’t know about Russia, but in Lithuania, children studied online, on their computers, for a year. They didn’t see their peers.

Back in summer, when we took them seaside to a children’s camp, we noticed that it was a problem — they weren’t socializing. There are difficulties with communication and connection. So we started organizing events focused on children. You said your first major discovery after moving was how great it was to hold your head high. — Absolutely. — You can walk outside without fear. It’s an intoxicating sensation. You arrive here, and it’s astonishing how your neck and surrounding muscles relax. You straighten your back and do sort of raise your head.

You raise your head and you notice a white-red-white flag in some window, and you’re shocked: “How come no one’s broken this window yet, “dragged the tenant out and beat them half to death?” It’s an intoxicating sensation, but it goes away quickly. Because I moved here after they had landed the plane.

That’s when the expat community realized that the stakes had been raised. That’s how Lukashenko communicates with the outside world: he raises the stakes to force his opponent to pull back. In Vilnius, people understand something very clearly.

[*Probably referring to Svetlana Tihanovskaya’s team.] – People from the team and those close to the team* were told: “If you see a car with diplomatic plates, get out of there, just in case.” When I was in Vilnius on August 9, I can’t say we were celebrating, ’cause there’s nothing to celebrate,

But we were commemorating the first anniversary of the protests in Lukiškės Square in Vilnius, I saw disguised people filming our column, just like in Minsk. We marched to the Belarusian embassy in a column formation. They were KGB agents? I don’t know if they were KGB agents,

But there were always many KGB staffers in Lithuania, which is why it’s still full to the brim with these… probably KGB agents. Warsaw is quieter in this sense. Kiev, after what happened to Shishov,

[Vitaliy Shishov was a protester. In fall of 2020, he moved] [to Kiev and started a public organization called Belarusian] [House in Ukraine. On August 3, 2021, Shishov was found] [hanged in a forest park with signs of beating on his face] – it was most likely murder,

[Vitaliy Shishov was a protester. In fall of 2020, he moved] [to Kiev and started a public organization called Belarusian] [House in Ukraine. On August 3, 2021, Shishov was found] [hanged in a forest park with signs of beating on his face] – is scary too. What do you do? Do you have jobs here?

We do. We work at a book warehouse. We pack parcels. People order books. We pack and ship them out. Is it enough to cover your living expenses? Yes. Because we rent a flat together! (laughs) If we lived in separate apartments, which is great of course, then it probably wouldn’t have… I mean…

It definitely wouldn’t. But since we rent a two-room apartment together, it’s enough. What do people who left do with their real estate? We met a lot of people who were trying to sell their apartments. What did you do? Some people sell. I didn’t sell my real estate. It’s just there, in Belarus.

I’m not selling or renting it out. It’s waiting for my return. Do you have a lot of savings besides the stuff you left at home? Well, in addition to real estate, I have some money that I’d been saving up.

I don’t have a regular source of income at the moment. I don’t work anywhere, besides the development of digital products for Belarus. My monetary savings should last me several years, but I think next year, I’ll start looking for a stable source of income. Back to IT?

Either develop products or work for an IT company. Yeah, I’m a production engineer. — With a local company? — Yeah, local. — What language? — Russian. You can get a job without speaking Lithuanian? Well, you see, this company gets a lot of orders from Russia,

And they need a lot of paperwork done in Russian, so they… I was a fitter at first. Nuts and bolts. Then they went: “We’re promoting you. You’ll be a production engineer.” So now I’m a production engineer. What’s the pay? I’m on a trial period right now, three months.

During the trial period, the pay is €850. That’s what I get. That’s after taxes. Is it more than what you made in Belarus? It’s less. Much less. But I like it, because for about six months, a little over, I did nothing.

I’d never had so many days off. It was the longest vacation in my life. So I was like: I’ll do anything! Just give me something! — Back in Belarus, you made over €850? — Of course. You made a lot by Belarusian standards! Well, I’m good at what I do, and…

My profession was in high demand, so they paid me well. I started from 12 złotys. Early on. Then in about a month, fifteen. Now up to 30 in some places. — Per hour? — Yes. — This is the apartment you rent? — Yes. How much is rent here?

We pay 1750 for this place. — That’s a little over $400? — Yes. It’s kind of… expensive. How do you feel here financially? — You’re doing okay… — Okay. — …or you gotta cut down? — No, I don’t. If I didn’t work, we would’ve had to cut down, because my son

Sometimes gives up half, or over a half, of his wage to pay rent. Since May, after my visa ran out, they’ve been subsidizing my rent expenses, 750 złotys a month. Who gives the money? Some organization? It’s the European Union and… yes. — As a victim of political persecution? — Yes.

How do you make money? I live off of The Good Life. But you don’t own the channel? I don’t. It’s a partner deal. Some guys I know came along after my previous project didn’t take off, and said: “We’re good at finding money. You’re good at asking questions.” Is it the Tribuna crowd?

I cannot tell you that, if they’re Tribuna or whatever. How much do you make a month? Something like €2000. Is it enough for a comfortable living down here? This is the first month I’m not moving. I might even save up some. I’ll leave like 500 in the piggy bank.

— This is model housing, right? — I’d say yes. It’s not business class or… I can’t afford business, sadly. I mean, in Moscow, somebody like PIK constructs similar buildings… but damn four times higher! — But here, it’s typical height for the suburbs? — Yes.

It’s actually great. And I’ve noticed something when I travel, why I prefer the Warsaw way: I can see the sky in the city. — Kiev is starting to build human mounds. — Yeah. These enormous… Yeah, they design great, well organized neighborhoods, with drugstores, food and even Belarusian goods,

But you can barely see the sky. This is good height. It’s even better in Vilnius — four or five stories, very cozy. I can even see terraces or something? They’re not terraces. There are two Polish words, ogródek and osiedle, I always confuse them. I think this “terrace” is called ogródek.

It’s for people who live on the first floor. How far is Belarus from here? Brest is 180 km away, as I understand. It really makes you think, because it’s less than 200 km, but the quality of life is so different. ‘Cause some people in Belarus may watch this and say:

“So that’s why you revolutionaries fled. You just wanted a better living.” [*Or Khrushchev.] – “You wanted nice buildings instead of our Hrushiov*- and Stalin-era wrecks.” I thought about it. It’s very simple. Why should my life suck if I went to a good school and a good university,

And have been working hard and honest since I was 17? This post-Soviet mentality of “we’re equals in poverty,” I think it has to change. When you have the smallest amount of freedom… One of my previous guests said: “Give the people freedom.” “People who are about self-destruction will find self-destruction.”

“People who are about creativity, making money and finding opportunities will prosper.” That’s basically it. I see equality in that. There’s absolutely nothing special about what’s happening here. With my Minsk-level income, I can afford this standard of living. And I get upset when I realize that two countries that started out the same…

Not even the same — we were in a better position when the sovok ended, but Poles did things the right way and arrived at their current situation. Why was your position better? Because we actively exported and sold our goods to Poles and they bought them.

They were in shambles. They had it way worse than us. We inherited agriculture and a lot of other things from the Soviet Union, but we flushed it all down the shitter. Tons of young Poles emigrate though. Entire Polish neighborhoods in London…

75% or a similar major fraction of people in Poland are unhappy with the quality of life in Poland. — So they head further into the EU. — Exactly. Germany… They say Poland is a “poor country.” We Belarusians get surprised hearing this. I talked to this Polish girl, she works for an international company.

Her sister lives in Belgium. And she’s like: “Guys, come on. Poland’s poor.” And we don’t quite get her. Yeah, emigration’s big. Why? This place has… Maybe because their starting point is higher than ours. More ambitions? More ambitions. They have an understanding of freedom from the get-go.

There are no limiters. Nobody’s pointing you to “your place.” Absence of borders changes your mindset. You get on a plane, and in three hours, you’re in Spain with no additional paperwork or anything. It affects you in a big way. How’s your new life coming together?

— I understand it’s been a year? — One year. We’ve successfully adapted. The kids go to school. The eldest daughter got into a university. — Local? — Yes, in Białystok. We rent a place. I do odd jobs here and there. I do the thing I love. It’s alright.

— What do you do? — Massages. — You give massages? — Yes. When did you learn that? Well, going back, I had a disabled child, so I learned this skill to help his rehabilitation. And now it’s your craft. It is, yes. — Do your children speak Polish yet? — They do.

— A year was enough for them to transition? — Yeah, yeah. They understand it well, they can write and read it wonderfully. So… no problems there. And your daughter managed to prepare for university in six months? It’s slightly harder for her. Because grown-ups do take longer to adapt.

But otherwise, yeah. Since October, she’s… After three months, it’s gotten much easier to understand and internalize the material. Do you make enough to provide for the family? Or do you get help from organizations? Well, we get subsidies because we applied for additional help. And besides, I get 500+ per child from the state.

Some might watch this and say: “You just wanted to move to Europe and bring your son to Europe.” Well, maybe they do say that. Would they be right? No, they wouldn’t. I could’ve moved to Europe a long time ago. I had an uncle in Europe. If I’m being honest, I now regret

That in a way, I ruined my children’s lives and my own. — By not leaving sooner? — Yes. — Ouch. — Yes. I got an apartment from the state. Things were alright. When was that? Thirty years ago. — After the Union collapsed? — Yes.

Let’s clarify something too. Besides all the neat, and nice, and civilized stuff… — This is a country that banned abortions. — Yes. How is it possible in the 21 century in the European Union? It’s an extraordinary country in this sense. You can display LGBT flags and be totally safe in doing that,

Which is unimaginable in your country or mine. They do pride parades, there’s lots of freedom, but the church here has privileges, and they condemn of abortions. Poland is a country of contrasts. I’ll admit that I don’t possess deep expertise on her matters, because I’m very much focused on myself.

I’m here to recover my strength and get my anxiety in check. But I understand that… I make use of local living infrastructure, which is absolutely top-notch, but my thoughts are with Belarus. Another dramatic part of your story is that you left, but your husband stayed in Belarus. — Who’s in the military too. — Mm-hmm. — You resigned. He didn’t see it your way. — Yes. How much time passed between your resignation and departure? I filed my resignation on August 17. On December 13, I left.

So almost half a year, five months. Yes, but important to note, we served in different cities. What was your relationship like in those five months? Did you try to come to a shared vision or maybe some agreement? Or was it a fight through and through? Well, it wasn’t a fight.

The thing is, the political situation in Belarus broke up a lot of families. Lots of relatives didn’t see eye to eye with each other on this stuff. So our situation… There was no fight. I made a decision. I knew the consequences and that I would be solely responsible for the children.

— Your husband didn’t share your views even when you rallied, before you resigned? — Yes. — Did you consult with him before leaving? — No. — Do you talk now? — Very rarely. We almost don’t. Save maybe for situations where it’s like…

When children call him and he answers the phone. We don’t talk directly. By 2020, had you been serving in different cities for a while? A year. Maybe a little over. So you hadn’t been living together for a year. Yeah. We talked, I mean… We were like family, just didn’t live together.

— It’s like you were away on business. — Yeah, yeah. He went to serve there because the place offered better multipliers. He wanted to build a better pension before retirement. — But it was the politics that split up the family? — Yes. Yeah, I guess it was this, like…

Some might think that I made a silly decision. What would tell to those people? That they’re stupid and cowardly. But they would… Silence begets the enslavement of their children. I read somewhere that Belarus has run out of therapists. Well, not exactly, she’s good for about three days, but yeah, the demand is huge.

I talked to some friends, and they suggested that people sort powered through till spring. They more or less handled the situation themselves. But then February came, the traditionally most depressing month. I can say for myself that mine was just pitch black. I think psychosomatics kicked into full gear —

The fear caused physical pain. The fear of uncertainty of what’s coming. You couldn’t plan ahead. When all your plans are as firm as noodles, it’s terrifying. You’re constantly shaking, you hardly sleep, you can’t eat. Stuff like that. People suddenly started to believe in therapy and therapists.

They realized that eating or drinking your issues away can’t lead to anything good. I came to Lithuania and after two weeks, my impression was that Lithuanian migration became Lithuanians best. Because Belarusian guys didn’t look too good. I saw one of my friends. He came to our meeting. First his belly came in.

Followed by the bags under his eyes. They were like two black seas. Then you start to feel guilt. It certainly makes things worse. You said earlier that some people might tell me off for leaving. The sense of guilt is inevitable. Because you don’t know if you did the right thing.

And it eats you from the inside. The easiest solution, at least according to most people that I talk to, is to work as much as possible. Work, work, work. Be useful, to the protest too. This causes people to overwork themselves like crazy. So overeating was the tummy that floated into my room,

While the two eye bags were the overworking. There’s probably only one remedy —  going to a therapist. Working through it, you know. But another one is work. If you sit around, you’ll… I notice that when you get a couple of days when you’re left to yourself,

You can get depressed and worry about the situation back home. When you don’t have the time for it, it’s easier to deal with. On the other hand, at least in my opinion… I speak for myself. I don’t wish to put this into people’s heads.

I mean you’ll sometimes stay up late, working hard, eyes are all red, and you’re like: “Man, but people are in prison.” And you’re going: “Well, yeah…” You sort of shame yourself into being like: “Dude, you’re all set!” So it’s like… What do YOU have to complain about?

— Are you working with a therapist? — Yes. How? Long distance? Yeah. We do video calls once a week. A little rarer now. It’s great. It really helps because… You can only work through that stuff with a professional. I cry regularly. Dudes should cry from time to time.

Because this whole super macho act is not good for you. It kills you from the inside. I cried about four weeks ago. I was in Istanbul. Belarusians now meet in Istanbul or Tbilisi, places where our airplanes still fly. I met with some people from Belarus.

And it choked me up. There were many factors. I was tired of fluttering. I hadn’t seen home in a while. And I was scared for my future. These three factors overwhelmed me. Some Istanbul highway, and I’m wailing away. What’s the hardest part of such emigration?

I guess the separation with your loved ones. The fact that you can’t see them. You can’t see your friends, you can’t see your family. You can’t talk to… Well we talk, but phones are not the same, are they? Day-to-day life changed. Favorite job’s gone.

— You’re into Nordic walking? — Yes! — Did you start doing it here or back in Belarus? — No, back in… I was… I placed first in three competitions, in my age group. The first competition… On May 12, they ran the Grodno Oblast Open Championship.

There were people from France and Poland. I walked 5 kilometers and got a better time than the men. So they turned me into Hanevich Aleksandr. I finished the race, looked at the monitor, and it said “Hanevich Aleksandr.” I went to the jury and said… — That’s me! — How?

— But the time! — Well, it’s not my fault they’re so slow! But this year, I also… A group of local Catholics was doing a walk to Częstochowa. They have a holy mountain there. [*Image of Black Madonna of Częstochowa.] – And they have this icon, Obraz Matki Boskiej Częstochowskiej*.

Częstochowa is 480 km from here. They walked for two weeks. I joined the walk for one day. A friend said, “Aleksandra, let’s join them.” 34 kilometers. The calluses I got! It was the shoes that I wore. Not good. — 34 kilometers in a day? — In a day, yes.

— Just went for a walk. — Yes. But the calluses afterward..! They had to cut open one of my heels during the walk. I meant to say that I walked… There was a woman even older than me though. I walked with a 44-year-old woman.

She couldn’t get up for the rest of the next day. (laughing) I lay down the next morning. Checked myself over. “Think I’m okay.” I got up and I was fine. Have you ever wondered, if your husband had a sudden change of heart and realized he was wrong, would you..?

It depends on time elapsed. I waited for him in August when his contract was ending. I hoped he’d come. — Here? — Yes. But that didn’t happen, so… He missed his chance. You waited for him to reunite and be a family? Yeah, I hoped he would come here and realize

[*Lukashenko is often called “cockroach”] [because of his mustache.] – that his family was more important than that cockroach* or that rotten system… But that didn’t happen. For shame. Unfortunately. I’m sorry… Do you still love him? I guess I don’t. I was hurt. I was angry. Now there’s nothing there.

But had he returned in August, he would’ve returned a loved man? Probably. But now it’s… It’s become reinforcement, and strength, and motivation. And a kind of toughness and courage. I have to be both mom and dad for the children. So… I manage. Have you heard Slava Komissarenko’s joke that we and you, meaning Russian citizens, are watching the same show? I also said it’s like we and you are watching the same show, only you’re on season 3, while we’re on 5.

And we’ll sometimes peek at your screen and go: “Oh man, things are about to pop off!” Do you think the events in Belarus could repeat in Russia? Looking at the trends in your country, you can tell they tested it out in Belarus, looked at how it worked

And what could result from it, it could start exactly the same way. However, as I understand, there’s a larger percentage of people in Russia who favor the current government. So this feeling that you fled the country but you’re right, that there’s more of us,

That we, people who don’t support the government, are the majority, Russian migrants probably won’t have that one. It’s gonna be more of a, I dunno, defeatist mindset, like “we lost” or “we failed.” I can’t say for sure that it’s gonna happen in Russia, but it could,

Because I can hear the tightening of the screws from here. We’re far ahead of you. Because to me it was… It’s an easy comparison. — This officer’s visor got foggy and he kicked a woman in the stomach real hard. — In Petersburg, yeah.

He brought her flowers and apologized. Which is still not enough. He struck a woman. Ours didn’t apologize. A guy lost his foot. It got torn off. Nobody apologized! They gave administrative sentences instead! If you came in to report a beating, they sent you back to custody.

So I’d say we’re well ahead of you on seasons. Tons of spoilers. Just you wait. I love Russians. The way to think about Russia is… It’s the government. Same as Belarus. Wish the government was different. But the people… I saw a lot of nice people in Russia. But Russia didn’t support you?

I… She didn’t. Too bad. But it wasn’t Russia, it was Putin. It’s the government. The rhetoric is: “Are we with Russia or the West now?” My personal opinion is that we could be indep- like neighbors.

If we’re neighbors, it doesn’t mean that I can come to your apartment and tell you what to do. “Put this thing here, Yura, and that one…” Just be good neighbors. Lend me money if I need it, but don’t tell me what to do. Right?

Let’s be good neighbors with Russia AND Europe. I always like Putin. I thought he was so smart. Like he was so… refined. But it ended even before 2020 when a family member came to visit, and she said that it was all…

I didn’t think they were corralling people at those meetings with Putin. I thought he actually came out to the nation to talk and share, and he was good at it. But when she told us what was happening in Russia, my opinion changed. And recent events reinforced it.

Some people in Russia believe that current events in Belarus could repeat themselves in Russia. I don’t mean the protests, but the reaction to them. Well, they’re right. You already saw the confirmation. You saw what happened at rallies in Navalniy’s support. Basically the same. They… They’re two brothers.

We’re sisters and we too act in unison. Same thing, they’re brothers. Older and younger. I think they ran an experiment in Belarus. Yeah, I too think that your Putin… — …runs experiments. — …experiments on Belarusians too see how it goes.

I don’t believe that he uses Belarus as a test site, because I’m certain that Belarus is under Lukashenko’s complete control, and Putin, as much as he wants, can’t manipulate Lukashenko. I think Putin does learn certain things, knowing that our nations’ mentalities are very similar

And that the methods that Belarusians invented to fight their regime would probably be replicated in Russia to fight her regime. So certain hints and lessons from the Belarusian experience, sure. But that it’s a controlled test site, I don’t believe for a second.

What do you think about Russia and the recent events there? I think Russia learned a lot from the events in Belarus and realized she shouldn’t underestimate bloggers, activists, the digital space. And unlike Belarus was completely unprepared for the confrontation in the media space,

I see that Russia is actively putting down the groundwork for it. They’re already actively purging the media sphere, the activists, the human rights organizations. And the simplest proof is that some of those organizations now contact us to consult and ask how we overcame certain problems.

For example, before Golos, one of the products I collaborated on, was a platform that allowed Belarusians to help each other through p2p, card-to-card payments via an online bank. Say someone needs to collect 500 rubles to pay a fine,

[500 Belarusian rubles ≈ €170] – Say someone needs to collect 500 rubles to pay a fine, [500 Belarusian rubles ≈ €170] – and instead of a single transaction from some foundation, they get fifty 10-ruble donations from fifty different Belarusians via an online bank.

They’re microtransactions which number in millions every day, and there’s no single organization whose account could be seized. The organization merely manages the traffic, posting the victims’ details on the site and verifying their cases. This experience got a lot of attention. Several Russian organizations inquired me about it.

I understand that in Russia, human rights organizations typically collect donations and then pay out the victims. They came to us and said: “There’s a chance our accounts might get frozen very soon.” “Can you tell us what you did?” There is interest for the Belarusian experience,

Because on the one hand, the Russian government is learning from it and implementing preventive measures against any sort of political activism, while on the other hand, Russian organizations, which too just yesterday probably didn’t think

That all hell could break loose and they could get shut down and their accounts frozen, they come in and ask, “What did YOU do?” And we’re like, “Guys, the only requirement to have SWAT to kick down the door to your office is a door.” That’s it. At least in Belarus.

Get ready, ’cause soon it’ll probably be like that in Russia too. (distant traffic sounds) One of your guests, Aleksandr Knyrovich, said that the revolution lost… — …and that in the next 50 years… — 50 to 70 years. — …you’re not coming home. — Yes. How do you feel about that take? I respect and accept it. Knyrovich has the right to his opinion.

I realize that I may never return home, but that doesn’t mean I should do nothing. I’ll do as much as I can doing what I do to create quality YouTube content for people in Belarus to… This week that we’re filming this, we’re seeing a spike in DMs going:

“Dudes, thank you for your work. Please, keep going.” The viewers see how many great people were born in Belarus, but were forced to leave Belarus, and so we’ll support the people for as long as we can. As for not returning, we have to keep it in mind as a possibility.

I think it’s possible, but I won’t say it out loud. It’s just going to be a while. — Do you wish to return? — Yes. Of course. My son buried there. Of course I do. How long is “a while?” Well, I think after Lukashenko kicks the bucket…

We all hope and pray for the day Lord Almighty takes him. That’s not Christian. I don’t like defending this person, but that’s not Christian. It’s not Christian, but you know… It’s not Christian to bury your children. It’s awful when parents have to bury their children.

Little children waiting for their mommies and daddies who are kept in prisons, that’s not Christian either. Do you think it’s possible that you’ll never return home? Well, that… He’s not immortal, thankfully. On the other hand, a similar scumbag could rise after him.

Yeah, yeah, I think it is possible that I’ll never see my home country. Does the thought upset you? Yes. I understand it is possible. However, I don’t believe it in my mind because I think that… There’s this popular opinion. We have an economist, Sergey Chaliy.

He said something I deeply agree with. He said that Lukashenko has been mortally wounded. And so… I don’t see a scenario today where Lukashenko could stabilize the situation like he did in 2010 or 2006, when he arrested the opposition, they introduced sanctions against him,

He said, “Okay, I’ll release the political prisoners, but revert the sanctions.” It’s something that happened several times before, and Europe is not going to buy it again. They realize that he’s simply lying. After everything that Lukashenko did recently,

I don’t think the West or the US will ever consider him a political figure again. He owes his existence entirely to support from Russia. And I doubt this support will last perpetually. I also doubt that Lukashenko has many years left in him.

Neither he nor Putin are at that age to expect to last a century. So I don’t expect this to last for long. I do hope it ends soon though, because every day that this continues sets Belarus back as a nation, economically, politically, socially. It’s lost time that’s painful to watch.

Besides the fact that tens of thousands have been imprisoned and thousands remain imprisoned, the country itself is degrading. And every day of this degradation will be very hard to revert. You said your dream was to live in a country where it doesn’t matter who the president is.

Of course! I mean… I believe the purpose of any president is to create an environment where the president is not needed, not to be a czar that tells everyone what to do. It’s possible I won’t come back to Belarus even after our victory. How do you define victory?

The fulfillment of the demands that were put forward: re-election, inauguration of a democratically elected leader, start of democratization and economic reforms. Why wouldn’t you return then? The level of enthusiasm, the quantity of candidates and their professionalism

That will rush in to jump-start their careers, people much younger than me, it’s gonna be enough. I just think that the vast majority of people who left will come back, because it’s typical, it’s career opportunities and so on. There are suddenly jobs back home. And so on.

Many will prefer the comfort of western living. This place is gonna be more comfortable for a while then? Much more comfortable. No. Definitely no. I mean it could take… It could end tomorrow, or it could continue even in five years.

In the context of a human life, it’s a long time. Three or five years. But in the context of history, it’s a tiny blip. So when we say that it’s gonna be over soon, keep in mind that it’s meant in the historical context, ’cause three years…

When you see it in a book, you think: “Three years is nothing.” But in the context of a life… I’ll be thirty. You’re like: “Thirty, huh. I’ll be a different person. That’s not how I imagine myself at 30.” I thought about it, but as one of my guests said,

“Biology is on our side.” Lukashenko isn’t forever. But we have to remember that there’s a system — it’s not just Lukashenko. He may leave or die, but the system will remain, and it will persecute those people. If you cross the border, you might get in trouble.

Do you think it’s possible you might never return to Belarus? God willing. Did you think about it? I do sometimes. But I think of it as… It’s like Lukashenko’s support: 3% odds that I don’t return. Not for a second. We know that we’ll return. Of course, we’ll return! Sure we will. Victory will be ours. We will win. Of course, we’ll win. Truth always wins. — Good beats evil. — Yeah. Also true. Does good always win in real life though?

It does in fairy tales. And we believe in fairy tales. The good ones. (chuckles)

беларусь,россия,вдудь,лукашенко,эмиграция,польша,литва,украина,варшава,белосток,вильнюс,каунас,жизнь-малина,честнок,ивулин,александр ивулин,ярослав писаренко,мы вернемся,руслан кулевич,никита мелкозеров,мелкозеров,либер,павел либер